Homework Assignment
Since it appears that Alabama fans are slightly pissed at oversigning.com for documenting the March to 85, we thought we would ask the Alabama fan base to take on a homework assignment and put all the energy they spend sending us hate mail containing personal threats to good use.
Here's the assignment. It's actually quite simple. Find us another program from a BCS conference that currently, right at this moment, still has to shed more than 6 scholarships commitments in order to stay under the 85 limit this fall.
Alabama had 66 players returning on scholarship when they signed 29 new recruits. 11 of those 29 enrolled early, putting the roster at 77, and leaving 18 more still coming in the Fall. 4 from the roster of 66 have already left (this includes Star Jackson), so that puts the roster at 73. 73 + 18 = 91. 91 is 6 more than 85.
You find us that program and we will go at them like a pit bull and won't let go. But you have to bring us concrete numbers and bear in mind that Alabama has already shed 4 scholarship players with eligibility.
There it is, let's see what you are made are really made of. Let's see if you are willing to put the time and effort into truly investigating the numbers for other schools and let's see if you can find another school that needs to shed as many scholarships as you do between now and fall.
We'll save you a little bit of time and help you narrow down your search - you can go ahead and scratch the following programs off of your list. Vanderbilt and Georgia, as they refuse to oversign players. 3/4 of the ACC refuses to do it as well, so scratch them from the list. You might want to look at FSU and Miami though. Texas and USC - scratch them from the list. Tennessee, scratch them from the list. All of the Big 10 schools, you can scratch all of them from the list, ND and Texas too.
There, that should help narrow it down a little for you.
Best of luck!
Update 5/21/2010: A bunch of posts, but still not a single team found that has to shed more scholarship commitments in order to stay under the 85 limit.
Update 5/28/2010: A reader here has posted a list of schools he believes are oversigned this year. In order to verify his assertion, we need to know the exact number of players on scholarship on signing day for these school and the number of players they signed. We have the number of players signed here, but need the other information.
You want other programs? Here ya go….
LSU currently has 91 players on scholarship (Need to cut 6)
Miami currently has 91 players on scholarship (Need to cut 6)
Texas A&M currently has 90 players on scholarship (Need to cut 5)
Washington currently has 88 players on scholarship (Need to cut 3)
Nebraska currently has 87 players on scholarship (Need to cut 2)Texas was at 88 players on scholarship, had 2 transfer, and now needs to cut 1 more.
Once we get valid numbers for these schools we will do a separate post. It should be noted that the homework assignment was to find a school that has MORE than 6 scholarship commitments to shed, but LSU and Miami are close enough. Still, though, Alabama has already dealt with 4 scholarships and still has 6 to go.
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May 20th, 2010 - 09:55
An even better question would be: when is Ohio State going to beat an SEC team on the big stage? Or are all their fans going to give up, and start whinny websites crying about how the SEC, even though perfectly within the bounds of NCAA rules, is unethical and immoral? LOL. OSU should just rename their stadium “The-SEC-Is-My-Daddy-So-Our-Fans-Act-Like-Three-Year-Old-Spoiled-Whinny-Pansy-Azz-Girls”.
May 24th, 2010 - 15:44
How on earth is this a better question? And what on earth does it have to do with the practice of recruiting kids to a school only to throw them out later when they find something else they’d rather have.
Immoral is right, though.
May 20th, 2010 - 10:10
FYI–Alabama signed 26 players in 2009. I know you’re counting the three greyshirts that signed as well, but if you do that, you have to subtract these three from the 2008 class. Those three players don’t count twice against the 85/25 limit, so it’s dishonest to list them in both classes as if they do. Alabama also has at least two players who are resigns, in Kerry Murphy and Brandon Lewis. You’ve also counted them in two separate classes when they’ve only come in and counted once. Therefore, while you list Alabama as having signed 113 players in four years, it’s actually 108–with 5 of them resigning in later classes. At least 5 of those 108 never made it to campus because they either went pro in baseball (Hood and Ray) or didn’t qualify academically. There will likely be a couple out of the 2010 class that won’t qualify either. So the number of players that have actually reported to campus over the last four years is right at 100. Don’t let facts get in the way of your conspiracy theories though. Watch out for the black helicopters flying over your house. I hear if you put tin-foil on your head they can’t read your thoughts…worth a try!
May 24th, 2010 - 18:18
Quit trying to bring logic into the equation. Logic has no place here.
May 20th, 2010 - 10:35
This issue is not about oversigning and I am sure there are many SEC and UA fans that agree it is abused to some extent. The concern from fans that are posting is your desire to demonstrate that the only reason that UA and Saban are successful is that they have an unfair advantage. Your constant badgering of the program and continual efforts to point out that UA does this.
But I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Since you are so adamant that it is wrong and based on your assumption that you like to imply it, is find us something that is a fact not your opinion, because as of right now you have not provided one fact that it is wrong or that a player was wrongly done in by it. Yes you can print numbers all you want but still no rule has been broken.
1. Show us a rule that has been violated, including where a player illegally had their scholarship taken away. I want a quote directly from that player or the NCAA. If this is happening it should not be hard to find a player that had eligibilty left and their scholarship yanked. So find it and not some article that you make assumptions on. Because you would think at this point the player would have nothing to lose whatsever by calling out the school.
2. Show us a player that was forced to transfer to another school. Again as above a quote directly from a player that they did not want to leave.
3. Show me the rule violation directly in accordance to the NCAA that says oversigning is wrong.
4. Show me a Big-10 or OSU rule that directly forbides the schools in the conference to oversign. I do not want to here some article from a reporter or coach that doesn’t practice it. I want to see in writing if your beloved conference has the rule in place that you so want the NCAA to create. Again they might I do not know.
5. Show me a rule the Big-10 has that is similar to the SEC in having a max 28 players that can sign a LOI for the upcoming year. Again it must be written into their bylaws.
6. Show me a article where all the schools and coaches in the Big-10 had denounced the practice of oversigning and not some article where you make assumptions that is what they mean. Because your opinion just like you seem to think about SEC and UA fans have no merit what so ever.
7. Show me an article that directly quotes a player or a parent of a player that is concerned with oversigning to the point that it should not be allowed.
8. Demonstrate to the people that read on this site you know the difference to a player signing a LOI vs actually receiving a scholarship. In case you did know they are two different animals that fall under two different organizations and are governed by two different organizations.
9. Demonstrate and acknowledge(not your opinion or belief) that the NCAA and the NLI as of right now only requires a school to offer a scholarship for one year at a time that is renewed annually based on the student meeting certain standards. Again not your opinion.
10. Please let everyone on this site know what school you are a fan of.
Again I understand the site and the purpose is suppose to be, but you continually attack one program and derails the goal of it and limits the validity of the information provided. Also stats and numbers can be worth while until they are used to support a biased opinion and allow someone to try and use them to make assumptions. Again some fans might be upset with your personal attacks that you also make, but for me it is more about the implications that you make that certian schools are only successful because of the way they do things and again I will argue no one is preventing the Big-10 from doing the same practices. I also dislike your attempt to interpret articles based on what you think they mean, even some so far stretched that you do not even link the whole article, and yes I have called you out on that.
But lets get passed that and do what I ask with the above 10 questions. See as readers we do not have to do any work for you and we do not have to agree with your opinion, and you have nothing to prove to us since again it is just your opinion. Even with the numbers which many have pointed out are not correct in every instance nothing has been done wrong or any rules broken. But if you want to add any validity to the site answer those questions. Show the majority of the people who have posted in response to the articles that you actually have some knowledge and understanding of the rules and that your assumptions have some validity to them. Because right now everything you argue is based on those assumptions I am asking you to clarify with actual proof. Again your site has some merit but your arguement lacks because you demonstrate nothing other than your opinion. Maybe that is all you have or want to and this site is solely based on your opinion. But if your goal in the end is to truly get the NCAA to crack down on this than they will expect you to come to the table with more than your own opinion and speculation. Again you might be able to find articles and rules they demonstrate everything I ask is correct based on right now only your opinion, but we will see and we will also see if you want people to take this site serious with actual proof of wrong doing and/or players that have been wronged or just another fan with an opinion about things in the sport they do not like.
The ball is in your court now so show us what is truth and what is conjecture.
May 21st, 2010 - 17:01
1. We never said an NCAA rule was violated. How many times do we have to say that the purpose of this website is to expose a LOOPHOLE in the NCAA By-Laws that allow teams to give out more scholarship offers than they have room for and then work their rosters down to 85 after spring and summer evaluations. We’re not saying anyone broke a rule, we’re saying there is a loophole that needs to be closed and we are going to do everything we can to help close it.
2. Rarely will you see a player bad-mouth a coach, even if he was nudged. These players still need the coach to help them get transferred and possibly into the NFL one day. These coaches hold all the power and can easily ruin a player’s rep. Basically, most players just go away quietly in the night. There are some that have come out – we have posted a link to an ESPN OTL piece where players have come out and talked about being cut. So it happens, just not all that often.
3. The Big 10 has a had a rule that prohibits the oversigning of players for over a decade. We’ve posted that on this site numerous times.
4. We have also posted a video of Jim Tressel saying that he never wants to go over his limit and that his limit is not 28 per year, it’s the number slots he has open each year at signing day. Last year he had 20 slots available at signing day…he took 18 on signing day and 1 more after…putting him at 19. One under the number he had open which was 20. I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to see Saban sign just 18-19 guys in a single class and do that for 2-3 years in a row. But it will never happen, he has never, ever signed less than 25 to a single class while in the SEC. He did while he was at MSU, but that was because he had to.
5. We have posted numerous comments from coaches, past and present, that denounce the practice of oversigning. Just read the post on Bobby Dodd and GT.
6. LOI are like golf strokes, they all count. Do we really have to go into that in more detail.
7. The 1-year scholarship agreement is another joke. Most everyone in the country operates under the pretense that recruits are coming to play football for 4 years. We have gone into detail on this topic as well.
8. Our team affiliation has zero bearing on the topic of oversigning. We simply see a loophole that is being exploited and we’re going to do everything we can to help get it closed. Plus everyone already knows the answer to that question.
May 28th, 2010 - 15:37
#3. Sorry, but the Big 10 (11)(whatever) allows oversigning. Their rule just limits how much oversigning can take place. Sort of like the rule the SEC has.
May 24th, 2010 - 21:18
The thing is oversigning is wrong. It may not be against the rules, but promising a kid that you are going to pay for his education and then taking that scholi away from him later is not right. College is expensive and they are STUDENT-athletes… they go to school for an EDUCATION. Yes alot of them want to get to the next level in their sport… but 90% of college athletes wont get there.
May 30th, 2010 - 15:51
Show me some students who actually had their scholarship pulled. As far as I can see, they’ve transferred (still have a scholarship), taken a medical hardship (still have a scholarship), left for their own reasons (didn’t want the scholarship), or been kicked out for disciplinary reasons (didn’t deserve the scholarship). Do you know of any others?
May 20th, 2010 - 11:26
I’m sure Alabama would have no problem traveling to Ohio St to play them in November, right?
May 20th, 2010 - 12:52
Why should we do the homework? You did all the homework to bash Saban. Put in the time to bash someone else. Ole Miss signed 37 players 2 years ago. Where is the uprising about that?
May 20th, 2010 - 13:15
Soccer Mike makes a great point. If Saban and other “southern” schools are screwing over players left and right by pulling their scholarships, don’t you think maybe one or two of these guys would tell someone? Where’s an interview with a former Saban player that states he was pushed out of the program against his will? Funny, you can’t find an article on the subject or a player who will say that. Interesting huh? And VERY problematic for your little conspiracy theory.
May 24th, 2010 - 21:24
There are other ways of getting players to leave. You make it miserable for them… or let the other players do that to an extent that the player no longer wants to be part of the program and leaves on his own will. There are many ways to get around the rules.
May 30th, 2010 - 15:53
You’re speculating. It’s also possible that aliens are controlling their minds, but I won’t believe it until I see some EVIDENCE, something this blog is sadly lacking in.
May 20th, 2010 - 23:04
What a joke, this site is dedicated to the messy and some may claim immoral act of oversigning recruiting classes to gain an advantage. They have made a pretty strong case and as typical SEC fans do ignore the actual question only to refute it by saying OSU sucks and Ole Miss signed 37 players 2 years ago. Oh and my favorite SoccerMike who is so happy about sounding smart he forgot to look at all the information on this site which provides almost if not all of the information he is seeking. So before all you SEC fans keep putting your panties in a bunch understand this issue is pretty much limited to the SEC which is why there is so much focus on the SEC.
May 28th, 2010 - 15:39
Roger, you really need to fact-check the information on this site. I don’t think the guy majored in math.
May 21st, 2010 - 02:09
This is hilarious. As an Alabama fan/student, I hope that you will please carry on with this. Like they say–if you can’t beat ‘em, create a cheap-looking website discussing irrelevant facts about ‘em.
Great work.
May 21st, 2010 - 12:04
SoccerMike, you wasted your time with those demands. This scum will not answer any of them. He is a osu homer that is jealous of Bama and the SEC.
May 21st, 2010 - 17:02
See above.
May 21st, 2010 - 17:56
See above what another poster stated. Please show me a an article where a player was upset that his scholarship was taken or where a player was forced to transfer. Apparantly your short answer demonstrates you can not and I am sure you probably looked for one.
I am giving you a chance to demonstrate that this site is dedicated to make more aware that oversigning is a growing trend and maybe not a good one. But as I stated and most of the other posters who have see this as only a biased site based on specualtion, assumptions, and conjecture. Which is perfectly fine and all fans are allowed to believe what they want. But it does lack credibility when it is based on your opinion.
Again I am not arguing about oversigning or that UA is not guilty of it. My concern is that you like to imply with underlying assumptions that Saban is the devil forcing players out and that some conspiracy is at work. Whether you agree with me or not the majority of the posters do. Go back and read what they say. The reason it is so personal is because you make it in your implications.
So answer post how you feel but I removed myself from the personal statements I made and asked you to address the topics I put out there. I like many would like to do that, but apparantly you won’t All it would do it help support your arguement and show that you have a legit concern other than a pissed off fan that does not like UA and Saban. Again that is alright but as you have noticed the majority of the posters only see that and so your site has no merit at the moment.
May 21st, 2010 - 18:12
Sorry did not see your above post which still dances around alot of UA fans concerns. It is one thing to bring to light concerns but the words you choose imply much more.
Yes I am sure many coaches struggle with retaining players that are unproductive and yes help them to move on to free up scholarships, but your site way to many times implies Saban is the only one that does it and that he does not give the players a chance.
Star Jackson played in the spring game with a chance to prove his could beat out the others. Why is it Saban’s fought that Start could not. You would imply that Saban should not of recruited McCarron or Sims because Star was there already. Sorry that is not how it works.
I will also go back and look at this site and the Big-10 to see if any rule actually has been created regarding oversigning or the max # of LOIs . You might be right on that but we will see.
Also you criticize Saban and UA but yet under Saban UA has seen the largest increase in GPAs in the program in along time and putting UA back near the top.
J Vaughters just named his top 5 with both UA and OSU in it. So I guess you were wrong before or maybe Tressel is following Saban’s path to success. Because you implied how OSU only goes after a high class of player unlike UA, but yet this year We both seem to ba after 10+ recruits the other oneis. Back to Vaughter’s his dad just said the one thing that stood out to him and his son was that UA when they won the NC this past year, 22 players on the rosters had already graduated with many already in grad school. Not to bad for a program you implied had lower academic standards compared to your Big-10.
Again you only posted a few coaches out of how many DI there are, comeon you like numbers so you have to understand a few do not carry much in the big picture.
Also the team you pull for does make a difference because you made it on by constantly calling out the SEC and comparing by continually praising OSU and the Big-10. You picked the fight not the UA or SEC fans. Not to mention your despise for Saban and UA when you post on the front page an email from a Auburn fan to demonstrate and gain some credibility for your site. Maybe I should just go a create a site dedicated to pointing out everything wrong at OSU only using info from UM fan boards. I am sure OSU fans would react upset to.
Again this is your site do with it what you want but when you make it personal and imply the things you do expect the posters not to post in a friendly manner.
May 24th, 2010 - 22:42
You must have gone to UA in the era before Saban. Do they not teach you guys how to proof read your own work?
To, Too and Two all sound alike but have different meanings.
Fought – past and past participle of fight
Fault – a physical or intellectual imperfection or impairment
I could go on but it would be better for you if you were to go up to one of those Big 10 schools and take an English course before making your next post.
May 24th, 2010 - 23:18
Sorry but I type faster than I need to and misspell alot of words. Very seldom do I proof read. BTW your insult holds no bearing on me since I did not attend any SEC schools for my undergrad or graduate degrees, nor am I from an SEC state. I know maybe the best response you can make is to insult me but whatever. Along as it makes you happy I am happy for you.
May 25th, 2010 - 16:07
“Star Jackson played in the spring game with a chance to prove his could beat out the others. Why is it Saban’s fought that Start could not. You would imply that Saban should not of recruited McCarron or Sims because Star was there already. Sorry that is not how it works.”
Actually, that’s exactly how it works. If you have already filled your roster spots, you stop recruiting additional players. Now, you could argue that UA wanted to supplement their QB depth and had the spots to do so when they signed Sims and McCarron, but the criticism is still valid in the general sense because UA signed so many players that they still have to cut six. Even if they manage to do so legitimately, they are still wrong for signing players when they weren’t sure that there would be room and cuts might be necessitated.
May 21st, 2010 - 21:20
So I did some homework. In 2002 the Big-10 created a new rule that allowed teams to oversign players to 28 LOIs. So a max of 3 players just like the rule the SEC now has. So the same rule there.
This is from an article I just found from 2008 and guess what it was OSU coaches that pushed for oversigning. No I believe you said that OSU or the Big-10 did not allow oversigning.
Ohio State men’s coach Thad Matta said he was one of the coaches who pushed the conference to allow oversigning in basketball. For the first time, with the recruiting classes announced in November, the Big Ten allowed its basketball teams to oversign by one player.
Matta said that was an important step in creating wiggle room for schools with players who may or may not leave for the NBA. Coaches must prepare for potential departures and need to oversign at times to do it. Matta, only half-jokingly, said he told superstar center Greg Oden, one of three OSU freshman who left for the NBA after last season, that he could come back for his sophomore season this year, but not for his junior year because his scholarship had already been given away.
“I was looking last year and thinking, ‘I could get caught holding the bag here if you don’t let me oversign,’ ” Matta said.
A great article and to be fair the reason the Big-10 allowed oversigning was to keep pace with the SEC. I guess if you can not beat them join them as they say.
May 21st, 2010 - 23:29
Also if you notice the OSU coach said they had already given away his scholarship after his sophmore year. I guess they do not offer 4 year scholarships at OSU either.
May 22nd, 2010 - 14:26
That is basketball…a completely different story with the 1 and done rules…
We already did a post on the Big 10 rule about the 28 limit…they’ve been using it for nearly 10 years.
May 28th, 2010 - 15:41
Yes, that’s completely different. It’s tOSU doing it, so it must not be bad…
May 21st, 2010 - 21:21
To clarify Big-10 allows 3 players to be oversigned in football and one in basketball.
May 22nd, 2010 - 14:34
No they don’t allow 3 players to oversign. This just further demonstrates that you still don’t get the meaning of oversigning.
The rule simply allows a team to sign 3 more than the 25 limit set by the NCAA…those three players MUST be assigned to the previous class and must enroll early in order to count towards the previous class. Then the other 25 can count towards the previous class. So basically the restriction is on the number of back-counters a school in the Big 10 can have.
This year alone, Alabama has 11 guys count back towards the previous class…and still have 18 guys to fit in. But, as I have said NUMEROUS TIMES, Alabama doesn’t have room for all of them, even with the 4 lost scholarship players at this point.
And furthermore, regarding the Big 10 rule, not only can they only back count 3, but in order to get permission to sign the 3 extra players, the school has to petition the Big 10 office and prove that there is room for the 3 back-counters and that by signing a full class of 25, plus the 3 back counters, that they are not going over 85 scholarship commitments.
This is completely different from the SEC, where, as stated above, Alabama had a ton of back counters and has more scholarship commitments for the current class than they have room for.
I just don’t understand why this is so hard for you to understand and why you fight it so much. You should just accept the fact that Alabama is wrong in this case and they are exploiting a loophole. It’s just the price of winning championships, right?
May 22nd, 2010 - 20:12
I do not think you get it. Please show me where UA backcounted 11 players. Understand that any player that comes in for the spring semester can only be backcounted if the previous class had room. Meaning that it did not commit 25 scholarships for that class. The 2009 class only had 22 scholarships commited. No matter what conspiracy you have on your mind that is it. So only 3 players were backcounted to the 2009 from the 29 players that were signed. Of the remaining 26 players D Menzie will receive a medical redshirt so the team only has to make room for 25 scholarship players if they all qualify. I know you have some implication you will post that Saban probably hurt Menzie to work him in.
Before you reply please provide proof about the above info you post . You call everyone else out but yet fail to provide info when asked. I do not understand why you find it so hard to do what is asked when you are called out.
I hope you understand that there is a difference between enrolling in the spring and backcounting, because by your post you do not demonstrate that you know nothing at all. But again your assumption is that UA backcounted a ton of players or 11 as you stated. Not a fact. When you argue please either say it is your opinion or prove it.
May 22nd, 2010 - 21:11
For once, you are completely right…11 players arrived early this year, not all of them counted back to the previous year. That was a complete error on my part. Still doesn’t change the fact that Alabama is over the limit.
May 28th, 2010 - 15:43
Oh, so “oversigning” isn’t defined by the NCAA in this case? Let me guess, it’s defined by you, right?
May 21st, 2010 - 21:41
So lets do some more homework for you:
Troy coach Larry Blakeney said. “We’ve never fallen short. We’ve never not had a scholarship.”
Blakeney is a master mathematician when it comes to juggling scholarships. No coach in America has signed more players in the past five years. Between 2005-09, Blakeney and his staff signed 162 players (average: 32.4).
No coach in America and it is not Saban has signed as many as Blakeney. I guess another wromg assumption on your part trying be a fact on this site.
To make sure we clarify something about the LOI….
NCAA’s NLI Web site warns athletes to “be aware of the informal nature of this commitment.”
It is not binding if the player does not get in.
May 22nd, 2010 - 14:40
We already posted something on Troy and Blakeney a long time ago. And the homework assignment was to find a BCS team that is more OVERSIGNED than Alabama. You have posted everything under the sun except the name of a team that is currently oversigned more than Alabama.
May 28th, 2010 - 15:44
Looking back, three people have mentioned the 37 signed by Mississippi, but apparently that doesn’t fit your mysterious definition of “oversigning”.
May 21st, 2010 - 23:21
No actually the homework I have done is for dear old Mathew the creator of the site. BTW I found out that Mathew atleast according to another site created this one. I now have confirmation of two things I have asked or assumed. One is he a OSU fan. Go to the site and it will confirm that. No doubt a huge OSU homer when it comes to talking about sports. Next does he have a bias against Saban and the SEC. Again go to the site. I think even the UF fans would love to see his remarks about Tebow.
Here is a possting of his on one of the pages….
Anyone clinging to any notions of “fair” as they pertain to big-time college football needs to wake up. I’m an Ohio State fan, I know the playing field is far from level.
Given that, I’ll simply state that the SEC has the lowest graduation rates in the country, the lowest academic standards of BCS conferences and also employs “oversigning” to an objectionable degree.
The recently launched oversigning.com describes how the practice works.
More importantly, this gives me an excuse to post a funny picture of Nick Saban.
Once you go to the site you will see his humor regarding Saban. Nice pic BTW. But again this pretty much shot down all your credibility that you put this site up to bring about awareness and how you have defended so much that you did not dislike Saban, UA, and the SEC. But do not worry I post on most boards on the SEC and they will probably like the link to your other site as well. See I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt but thanks to your homework request you true colors have been shown.
http://level6sports.blogspot.com/2010/02/oversigningcom.html
May 22nd, 2010 - 12:27
If this site makes you so angry, why continue to return and add unnecessary stress in your life?
May 22nd, 2010 - 14:45
Mike…
You need to get a grip brother. This site, is in no way affiliated with the site you linked…not sure where you are getting your information, but just like 99% of what you post, it is inaccurate. Dude, I love your passion, but you need to get a clue brother.
May 24th, 2010 - 16:44
He could absolutely loathe Saban and Alabama. He could also wish to make love to everyone associated with OSU’s football program. Neither of these things taints his credibility regarding oversigning by any school–including Alabama. You just wish this diminished his credibility. come back when the numbers he provides turn out to be false. that’s damaging to credibility.
May 22nd, 2010 - 08:29
Thanks for the hard work, but you obviously don’t get the meaning behind what we asked you look for…Auburn, although they have tremendous attrition as shown above, is not in a position right now where they have too many scholarship commitments and have to shed players in order to get under 85 before the fall. Just so you know, I completely agree with you that Auburn has been through a TON of players and what they have been doing is just as much of a problem as what Alabama is doing, it’s just a slightly different issue. If Auburn were in a position where they had too many scholarships offered and had to shed players we would be all over them right now.
May 22nd, 2010 - 15:08
The amazing part about the Auburn situation is that it sheds light to just how flawed the NCAA’s APR system is – there is no way a school should lose that many players and still avoid the APR penalties.
This is another reason why we believe the LOI needs to carry more weight and why schools should be more limited in how many they are allowed to accept.
May 22nd, 2010 - 15:37
Thank you for demonstrating why Auburn has had absolutely NO DEPTH the past few seasons. As you showed, many of these kids were recruited by the previous coaching staff, and did not make the grades to get into school, which ultimately hurt the team. Ignoring the fact that you double counted players, a large portion of that Auburn turnover was due to the coaching change in 2008. It remains to be seen how well the Auburn staff is able to balance their recruiting in the coming years. I predict that it will mellow out like the Georgia, Florida, and Vandy teams (staffs that have been around the longest). Its now year 4 under Nick Saban and he still hasn’t slowed his oversigning and stockpiling of talent. Before too long, he’ll be forced to ask players to wait 2 years before going on scholarship, essentially having 30+ more players in his program than the teams he plays, which would be a return to the days of Bobby Dodd / Bear Bryant feuds.
May 24th, 2010 - 20:06
IF you must insist on making your point, and IF you are going to make this about the moment (thus the words “position right now”), then I have to ask, don’t you think Alabama finds itself in a bit of a situation right now? Yes we just won a National Championship, but that was way ahead of schedule because other lame @ss conferences can’t figure out how to win on the gridiron. Bama/UF will decide the NC for the time being, but Bama is still recovering from an unjust attempt by the NCAA to railroad the University (it just happened again with the lame textbook penalties). There will be attrition because some of those athletes you mentioned were from other regimes, or were taken before Saban had the ability to fully recruit. In a few years, this will not be the norm. Whoever you are affiliated with still has to deal with the fact that you didn’t win the NC, and unless you root for UF or Bama, will not win it anytime soon. And one final word….
SCOREBOARD
May 28th, 2010 - 15:49
No, we get the meaning. The meaning is that you have some personal vendetta against Saban, and any facts that don’t support that theory are going to be conveniently ignored.
May 22nd, 2010 - 21:15
For one I am not angry just amused that someone is so arogant to actually think that their opinion equals the facts. Continually posters have pointed out discrepancies and yet you fail to address them except by calling them out or posting more assumptions.
Again please answer directly these few questions or inquiries. I do not want your opinion whatsoever except straight answers.
Please provide an article where a player is quoted that they were either forced to transfer or lost their scholarship because Saban no longer wanted them. I do not care what you think, either provide a link or say I DO NOT HAVE ONE.
Please provide a link to the Big-10 rule that shows exactly what their 28 signing rule is. This is directly from an article written on an OSU site. It does not discribe the rule as you do so please provide a link so I can see what exactly you are talking about. Because based on the article below it is oversigning based on what the SEC does. Especially since it was initiated by a former SEC coach who went to the Big-10 so he could gain the same advantages that you say the Big-10 does not get . Again I am not making it up just posting the info the same I hope you will. I am very curious to see how it reads exactly.
From the article….
Columbus- When former LSU coach Gerry DiNardo arrived at Indiana in 2002, he went to work bringing a piece of the Southeastern Conference to Big Ten recruiting.
He successfully pushed for a rule change that introduced the concept of “oversigning” to his new conference, but on a limited basis…..
Actullay a really good article that explains your concerns very well but in a more diplomatic manner, or lets say not so abrupt.
Also you call me out and say that 99% of what I post is wrong but that is based on that your opinion is correct, which it is not. Take for example the header you have on the top of the homepage. 30+29+28+32=85. I know you like to use numbers to manipulate things. The only reason to have any stats around at all. But that is incorrect info and when pointed out you argue that is not based on your assumptions.
Saban 2007-2010 4 classes, since 2007 was his first class, here are the real numbers:
2007-24 players signed a NLI but only 22 received scholarships. I only know for sure that K Murphy did not qualify and had to attend prep school, there was one other that did not get in and I think that went to JC.
2008-big year here with 32 signing NLI but only 28 received scholarships. K Murphy again did not qualify, J Preyear did not qualify, B Lewis and D Bolton did not qualify and had to attend JC. Actually on 31 signed LOIs that year because K Murphy signed one the year before so I know you like to double count players but it is good for a year. Three players were backcounted since only 22 arrived the year before and 25 to the class.
2009-29 signed but again Preyear did not qualify his was still good from the previous year so actually only 28 players signed NLIs but only 21 received scholarships. Q Dial and A Orr did not qualify and had to go to JC and we had one still nursing an injury but still went on a medical hardship and 3 players who grayshirted and did not enroll until spring of 2010. P Smith, D McKellar, and J Fowler. Also K Williams did not qualify and not sure where he went. So only 21 players received scholarships that year.
2010-29 signed counting the 3 that grayshirted from 2009 and B Lewis who went to JUCO. Plus it looks like A Orr will still have to attend JUCO in the fall and come in next spring. But the 3 grayshirts(Smith, McKellar, and Fowler, along with B Lewis will be backcounted. So those 4 and A Orr will not not get or be counted against the 2010 class. Plus D Menzie got hurt playing pick-up BBall and will take a medical redshirt this coming year and will not count against the class, a player that we were hoping would come in and start. So that is only 23 incoming players that will receive a scholarship for the 2010 class and count against it.
So lets recap here. 2007 -2010
24+32+29+29=114 compared to your numbers of 30+29+28+32=119 NLIs (technically)
Technically because actually only 107 different players ever signed LOIs during that time. Still I know more they should have but not what you put out there.
2007 22 players received scholarships
2008 28 players received scholarships backcounting 3
2009 21 players recieved scholarships
2010 27 players received scholarships with 4 backcounting to the previous class
So 2011 will have 2 spots left that can be backcounted into if needed.
So for four years 98 scholarships were handed out. That means that over the four year span 13 players either left early for the draft, transferred or graduated early. Not really that bad considering and I bet if you looked there are many more schools with greater attrition than 3 players a year leaving. I also understand that this does not take into account players prior to Saban arriving and already on the roster. It also does compare numbers against the 85 limit which since UA did not get in any trouble met that. But it does demonstrate that under the four years that Saban has been at UA that no year has his class went over 25 scholarships for the incoming year and that in fact 2007,2009, and 2010 he only gave out 22, 21, and 23 scholarship respectively and had room left to add players. Thiose are the facts and they are documented on several websites including ESPN, Scout, Rivals, and UA’s website. I am not manipulating numbers just putting them out there exactly how they happened. No assumptions. You can argue all you want against these but they are the facts plain and simple.
Again I am not saying that UA or any other school is not guilty of oversigning just disagreeing with the reasons or against your conspiracy for why. Atleast when you post something post it correctly even when someone points out you are wrong you disagree and become very defensive.
May 23rd, 2010 - 07:55
Mike,
A couple of things here.
1. I have seen you post on other Alabama boards under another name, Tide Warrior, bragging to your buddies there that you have been calling this site out and claiming that you know the origin of the site’s creator.
Again, you are wrong about the owner of this site and the link you posted on the tidefans board has absolutely nothing to do this site.
Also, not that I went looking for you, but you see, whenever someone puts a link to our site on a message board or on their own website and someone clicks on it, it gets recorded in our weblogs. Every now and then I look at those to see who’s linking the site.
2. All you are doing in the above post is trying to rationalize oversigning by playing games with the numbers, minimizing academic non-qualifiers, and using a lot of smoke and mirrors. Guys who don’t qualify and are signed a second time count twice FOR ALL FRICKING SCHOOLS NOT JUST ALABAMA. If Kerry Murphy signs a LOI in 2008 and doesn’t make it in and signs another LOI in 2009 and does make it in and then signs another LOI in 2010 but makes it in then yes, he will have counted THREE times. It doesn’t matter that it is the same guy – we count the numbers the same way for everyone. You act like we are only counting them that way for Alabama.
3. OF course he doesn’t have a class that went over the 25 limit when you are talking about SCHOLARSHIPS – he never will because it is a violation of an NCAA rule and Alabama will be penalized. Again WE’RE NOT TALKING ABOUT SCHOLARSHIPS!!! We’re talking about players signed. Another point you miss. If he gives out 25 scholarships a year for 4 years that is 100 players – 15 over the 85 limit.
You have the facts right about the number of scholarships, but you completely miss the point that this site is not about the number of scholarships – we all know that everyone stays under 85. This site is about the loophole of signing more players to LOI than you have room for and running spring mini-camps for extra player evaluations.
Mike – you really need to get a grip on yourself. If you continue to babble incoherently we are going to have to start just ignoring you completely.
One last point on the 2002 article, which makes us wonder if you ever really read this site, we posted a piece on this already.
http://oversigning.com/testing/index.php/2010/03/11/gerry-dinardo-circa-1996/
May 22nd, 2010 - 23:09
Just found this site, and I totally agree with the site creator. Saban knows exactly what he’s doing. You don’t oversign by so many scholarships without a plan to run off the players you don’t want. It’s just common sense. Or do you think Saban oversigns with the hopes that everything will magically work out, or that the NCAA will raise it scholarship limits before the season starts.
Alabama fans can get their self-righteous pants in a wad, beat around the issue, and resort to calling you a conspiracy theorist or whatever, but these are the facts. It’s not a “conspiracy,” but the business of major college football, at least for some programs. Enjoy your championships Tide fans, but don’t even try to claim moral superiority… Bama has long been a dirty program all the way back to the days of Bryant.
As for why kids don’t speak out about it, southern football is a very high stakes business with a lot of powerful people involved. I doubt it’s in a lot of these kids’ best interests to mouth off against someone of Saban’s prominence, or against the Alabama football machine.
Keep up the good fight Joshua!
May 23rd, 2010 - 09:22
Some of the Alabama players that are listed at signing a LOI are actually going to walk on and pay their own way. One will not play at all due to a medical injury he was never cleared by the staff to play but still will get a scholarship although a medical waiver. As stated Star left but anyone could see that coming since last December. By my count if they all qualify we have about 5 maybe 6 to many and if so he will grayshirt some or so like last year if needed and attrition will almost always take some away.
May 23rd, 2010 - 09:46
This site is so full of biased interpretation it is really sad that you haven’t got better things to do in your life! I read one comment of yours saying somehow magically there were off season arrests that allowed for players to be cut from the total numbers. How a HC can control or “allow” arrests is total BS,and in fact in this day of sliding moral decay it is a sad biproduct of present social issues of our society,and not something positive in the US as a whole. Player’s in fact cut themselves when this happens,and I’m sure no HC enjoys or wants this to happen,but with present recruiting limitations of actual HC/prospect visits/contacts I’m sure some players get offers that if they were screened further might not have. Attrition in fact is high at every SEC or major program,and because of this Miss. signed 37 one year which in fact caused a new signing rule to be changed.
May 23rd, 2010 - 10:19
I am actually still waiting to see the link that shows the exact wording of the rule. I am not doubting you on the language but I really want to know what the rule is verbatim. The reason I ask is when the SEC created their rule they said that it was based on the rule that the Big-10 already had in place and would like to see the rest of the country do the same. I want to see the language of the two compared and see the differences you are stating. Again I am not disagreeing with you on that but I have looked for it and can not find it so I was hoping you could shed some light on it.
I also do not see how you are comparing mini-camps to extra evaluation unless you are refering to cutting players already on the team. Any player that is on the roster in the spring, even if cut can not be back counted into from the upcoming class. That is an NCAA rule. So players that sign for the upcoming class can only equal 25 coming in on scholarship. Correct me if I am wrong but are you talking about cutting players or lets say not renewing scholarships based on the spring so that they can bring in a full 25 and still stay under the 85 rule.
My one comment was about your header which is only UA that you post on the top of the site and those numbers are directly from every recruiting site including players that signed in multiple years because they did not qualify. So where do you get those numbers. A simple question just looking for clarification here. Again do not get defensive I am just asking and I am not trying to rationalize I am qeustioning where your numbers come from is all. You want people to come on here and be made aware and you want people to post, but you seem to get angry when people ask questions that deter from you logic.
And BTW I did not miss the point I stated he gave out 98 scholarships over the last 4 years and I also stated that I was not considering the 85 limit in the posting at the time. I also stated that it meant that 13 scholarship players would have to be trimmed in order to make it work whatever the reason.
Not regarding those 13 scholarships that had to get trimmed via players that were actually credited to Saban while he was at UA during the past four years I will explain that in his defense since this site seems im my opinion just like many other posters have stated that Saban is wrong for what he has done.
2007 had 7 players that are no longer on the team but qualified and received scholarships.
Nick Fanuzzi, Tarence Farmer, Chris Lett, and Patrick Crump all transferred out after the first year. Beisdes N Fanuzzi who Saban recruited when he got there in Jan. I am pretty sure reading the articles that the other 3 were recruited by Shula and in my opinion might not have been recruited by Saban if he was there the year prior and I am not condoning not giving them a chance but probably that Saban just did not see them fitting into his plans. But I can also see not recruiting a player that the relationship would not be there and the players might not have even came to UA if they knew Saban earlier. Again my opinion for the reasons for the transfers not a fact.
Jamar Taylor transferred because he did not want to play for Saban. He was actually an EE that already received his scholarship and had arrived on campus before Saban did and transferred out that spring.
Jeremy Elder got arrested and lost his scholarship but my understanding is playing again DII in AL. Again I am referencing this because on your site you talk about recruiting character and that it would eliminate some of the oversigning or atleast players leaving. He was recruited by Shula and yes Saban honered the commitment by accepting his NLI.
Jennings Hester received a medical scholarship and graduated from UA. It was reported that he had a career ending injury. I am not sure what the injury was, but stating that is what happened because as your site talks about that it can be used as a loop hole and I am sure at times it is. But another player that Saban did not recruit, Shula did, but Saban did make sure he received an education at UA.
It was well documented that Shula did a horrible job while at UA recruiting players with questionable character that have been in constant trouble and/or arrested while at UA and are no longer on the team. But I will give Saban the benefit of the doubt for the 2007 recruits that he accepted NLIs from because it was his first year and did not recruit the majority of the class since he arrived shortly before NSD. I will give way to the fact that Saban probably told the recruits that their future would not include seeing the field and supported them to transfer and that maybe other coaches would have held onto to them.
His 2008 class saw 6 players leaving upto and before the 2009 season. Two players did receive their scholarship and counted against the class but as been posted on this site got drafted during the summer and went to MLB. Still Saban did take the chance and told them the reason for giving the scholarships to them anyway was in case baseball did not work out they would be able to come back. Not many coaches that I know of would have done that in my opinion.
Ivan Matchett was another career ending injury that received a medical scholarship and will graduate from UA. Again not sure what the extent of the injury was but even if the loophole was used I will agree that atleast the kid will get the education he wanted. I know you might disagree but still lets agree to not agree on this one.
Three other players transferred out. A Lawerence supposedly got in trouble with several other recruits(shula’s) and I guess Saban allowed him to save face by transferring and not kicking him off the team. The other two players that transferred out of that class were C Jackson that orinially commited to GA Tech and decided to go back and Corey Smith who originally wanted to play for R Rodriguez at WVU but when CRR left for UM he came to UA, but decided to go back home and go to WVU. C Jackson was a legit transfer I think but I think C Smith was more of a casuality of not seeing the field and also becoming homesick. Again if CRR would have stayed at WVU C Smith would not have to UA.
I can provide a link to the articles regarding each player but unless you want it I see no purpose. Again I am not condoning oversigning and I have pointed out earlier on this site that I think Saban once he is at UA for a while you will see the things that have taken place at UA happen no longer and your response was than that if so you will credit him for it. My posting now is not babble but to directly contribute to your site in a response that I would hope you would want. The above posting is regarding players that are offered NLIs that has lead Saban to oversign players. Again I do not fault him for the 2007 class since he probably knew that he would lose a few of the players he did not recruit. Even though he only signed to NLIs 24 that year. No oversigning what so ever. The next year when he signed 32, I also think that it was attributed to so many from the previous class that were leaving, seven in all. I understand that if Saban was in the Big-10 he would not have been able to do so. So yes he did have the advantage of being in the SEC and cleaning house so to speak to sign more players that the class allowed for.
The other players that have been removed during his tenure were players that were recruited prior to him being there and mostly got in trouble. Again I post this because you have stated that if coaches can recruit based on character that would eliminate the need to oversign if players stayed out of trouble and not have to leave the program.
The only two so far this year are Star Jackson, which again I think is a casuality of playing time but he been giving ample opportunity to perform and was surprised as a fan that he left. He played well in the spring game and I hate to see players leave but atleast he did leave and will continue to play CFB. Remember even though McCarron and Sims were recruited by Saban, McElroy beat out Star for the starting QB position. This is significany because it is the only player I know of that Saban has recruited at UA that could replace a former recruit under Shula. In other words the only player I can honestly say Saban misjudged on talent and could not develop.
The other player was T Grant. He was apart of the 2006 class and recruited under Shula. He attended UA for 4 years and did receive his schoalship. Saban did give him every chance to succeed. Saban’s first year he was our leading rusher and his sophmore year was beat out by G Coffee, who was not a Saban recruit. So not someone Saban brought in to replace, but yes his next year lost out to a Saban recruit in M Ingram.
Another important fact is that this site infers that alot of oversigning comes from non-qualifiers and if players were recruited also based on their achievements in the classroom oversigning could also be eliminated. I have to agree strongly here and have issues with this but will save that for later. But so far under Saban’s watch only 2 players that he has recruited have yet to qualify at UA. J Preyear who is playing somewhere and D Bolton who is trying to still qualify. But unlike some of the other SEC coaches and coaches around the country they support the sign and place strategy aka oversinging, Saban does try to get the players to UA and with the exception of those two he has so far and the book is still out on Bolton. Now grayshirting is a whole different loop hole and that is one I think the NCAA will crack down sometime soon.
Again I will argue the longer that you see Saban at UA the issues or concerns of oversigning or players transferring will no longer take place. I will also state that I think Saban has used some of the loop holes, medical redshirting and grayshirting to help clean house per se to quickly get the program back to where it is. Understand Shula and previous staffs had destroyed it. I will also agree that if Saban was in the Big-10 could not have done it so quickly, but I will say he would have gotten there, because no one can argue he can coach.
I hate writing these long post but I want to point out that I am not arguing with you and that I am only trying to add info to this site. I do feel that many articles or statements that are on here allow for way to many assumptions to be made. I do think other coaches in the SEC have abused the sign and place method to oversign but so does the SEC and hence the new rule, which may not be as strict as the Big-10. One I still have not been able to find but know it is out there somewhere. If Saban is guilty of anything it is grayshirting or using medical redshirting to retain players in a pool. But most of the MR for were for former players that I think he used to honor their scholarships so they could graduate and not have to leave the school. For the most part the transfers are starting to slow down now that his recruiting classes make up most of the roster. After 2011 I will not have any excuses if the trend continues because they will all be his recruits and the cleaning the house period will be over.
I look forward to more exchanging of thoughts and hope to try and not make them so personal.
May 23rd, 2010 - 10:47
Joshua,
You might have more credibility if you were not such an Ohio St fan.
The SEC now limits its schools athletic scholarships because of Ole Miss , and houston Nutt.
1. Joshua- do you know more about the players lives,and what they are going through at Alabama than Coach Saban?
Unless you are psychic, or can read minds, or some other stunt then there is no way you can include yourself as an “insider” to Coach Sabans reasons for running his program- not your program- the way he does.
I would think Coach Saban knows who is going to make it, and who is not, and acts accordingly.
2. IF you were a head coach, and had 10 “iffy” players for whatever reason…….what would you do?
play with 75 right?
IF you said yes……..your either a blogger, or a fired head coach……probably just a blogger.
College athletics is a big time money making sport for Ohio st as well, and you live in a glass house josh.
You rag on coach saban, but I wonder what you said about woody hayes when he punched that kid on the sidelines. Yes, you are attacking coach saban with this “85″ blog, so turnabout is fair play.
3. When Alabama was playing with 17 less scholarships I bet you were laughing your head off.
I bet you didnt think Alabama should be able to sign 17 more players to get up to the 85 limit.
right?
Why is that josh?
You write and article and name it, and then you will not budge from your “OPINION” even though several times in the above comments you were proven wrong, so I dont expect you to now.
I have not called you any childish names as you have to some comments prior.
The “85″ article should be titled.
Coach Saban runs a clean program, and I dont like him winning at that Jim crow school.
Jealousy is so easy to spot.
May 23rd, 2010 - 10:50
I want to clarify I am not justifying anything, but I think for readers to have full understanding of the situation as it pertains to each program they must be presented with all facts or both sides of the story. I am not here to persuade any reader but to point out other things can take place. It is up to each individual reader to determine what they think is the case and formulate their own opinion from the information provided. In the end all readers might disagree with my assesment and that is fine.
Also here is the link to the OSU article I was talking about. Probably the same as the others you have:
http://www.cleveland.com/osu/index.ssf/2008/01/stricter_scholarship_rules_put.html
I also found an article for you but have to locate the link again. It regards a player that I would wager to say because of oversigning at Arkansas, made famous by Nutt even while at Ark. that was transferring. It did not come out and say it directly but when the mother was asked about the transfer you can tell they did not want to but she said they could answer the question. So I found you an article with a players transferring that did not want to. Hopefully I can locate the link for you. But again it was not a UA.
May 23rd, 2010 - 22:00
I will repeat my earlier statement, when it comes to critizing any SEC school all of the loons come out of the wood work. They all have the same answers, you’re wrong because OSU sucks and you are a homer…For everyone who just blankly supports your school. This is solely about how many LOI’s are signed. I can add and subtract the number of scholarships any which way I like, but it doesn’t matter because any school can only have 85, now how you arrive at the 85 is the central point of the debate. Really there is nothing to debate, if you have more people “commited” to your school you are preventing them from going elsewhere. So instead of starting out with 85 players, you have 100. Keep the ones you like and find ways to excuse the ones you don’t. It is a fact, (not an opinion) that certain conferences have rules in place that limit the numbers of LOI and other conferences are little more relaxed with their regulations. If someone cannot see it has developed into a competitive advantage then you are not looking.
So I will leave you with this, if a conference has allowed a certain practice to gain an advantage say to the tune of 5 national champions in the last 7 years and allowed their conference to be considered the best in all the land, why come here and demonize a guy for pointing out how they have done it? It is only supporting what I have heard every SEC fan say for the better part of 5 years….We are the best and the big 10 sucks….Isn’t fair to point out that is not a level playing field, what is the harm in that and why are you so defensive about it (namely any Alabama fan)? Unless of course you know oversigning does improve your chances to win titles, then I could understand you being a little defensive.
May 24th, 2010 - 09:32
I think it has to do more with the fact the owner of the site becomes defensive when SEC fans get on here and says that is exactly what he is doing. See your posts points thats out but yet if you read his posts he will adamantly deny that and say he is only using UA and other SEC as the examples because to him they are so obvious. As a fan I have seen many sites that come out and claim why schools win and I understand fans like to justify why other teams win and theirs do not. Right now UA fans are on top of the world, but that was not the case a few years ago. Yes I saw all their excuses for not winning just like I see all the excuses for the other SEC fans why they are not currently.
Also how you explain the numbers do become important. This site lumps them all together when there are seperate issues involved and certian circumstances that I feel even fans from other conferences if given the whole story might not see it as bad as this site makes it out to be. It is almost like lumping every crime commited into the same pool. A DWI is the same as someone who commits a murder. Yes they are both crimes but on a completely different level. I mean how many businesses when top management changes keeps all its employess or do they clean house.
Look at it this way you get hired and paid 4+ million a year to come and rebuild a program with some of the most diehard CFB fans there are. A school where 90k+ show up for a spring scrimmage. Your job stability and future is based on one thing winning. Now just like in business this can only be done by maximizing your resources or getting in new resources to get the job done. Is it the ideal situation for all the players that were already there or the ones just coming in. Probably not but this is life we are talking about not some preschool where you get a gold star for not messing in your diaper. There are going to be casualities every time a new coach comes in. Shula was notoriuos for bringing questionable recruits in that later got arrested or never had the ability to perform in the classroom and they are now gone. Ask yourself would you keep these type of players in your program. I mean commend someone that will not tolerate the star ego that some of these players have and think they can get away with anything because they play football. But yet this site will criticize Saban for running them off, but yet fails to explain why and just lumps them in there.
Yes Saban has ran off many players and yes he has offered more scholarships than availible. Which during the spring semester is when it has happened. This site accuses him of using spring practice as evaluations to remove players but with the exception of S Jackson no player that has left the program has participated in spring practice that left that spring. The decision for them to leave was already decided by either having academic issues, off the field issues, or upset about fall playing time. The first 2 have been the plague of Shula’s time and each of those players were not recruited by Saban. The other has to do with Saban only wanting the best on the field. Again only 2 players that Saban recruited have transferred.
Again adding and subtracting numbers is only part of the equation I do it to have the same effect as the owner of the site. I can take the same numbers and come out with a different meaning all day long. The point to eliminate oversigning is to address why it is done. For the NCAA to come in and change the practice they will look at the situation and determine if as this site points out is malicious in nature. In the SEC as of late it has been growing throughout the conference, but this site has not proven it has given any school an advatage. Yes Saban is a master with the numbers and they have won a NC at UA just like what he did at LSU. But what about Ole Miss or some of the other programs that conitually oversign where has there success been at. I haven’t seen it and UA it not the only one to do it as this site points out. My arguement that there is more of a relationship between the schools that do it and the fact that they all have fairly new coaching staffs. This site compares certian SEC schools to Big-10 schools, but the variables are not the same. When Saban and some of the other new coaches have had the tenure that some of the coaches in the Big -10 who other schools this site likes to praise than I think you can actually compare. But until than it is specualtion as to oversigning giving an unfair advantage. Because if Saban in the next 5 years only signs 20 to a class and is still winning NC what then.
In the beginning I psoted on this site by not being agressive and quickly the response was always pointing out that I was wrong and the owner was very defensive in his answers about this site. So I do not think it is how we respond, because it is just the nature of people when they have a strong opinion.
May 23rd, 2010 - 23:22
Life is hard, it isn’t fair. I like the fact that if you don’t produce at SEC schools, you get cut. That is is the way things work in this country. As a Ut fan I would do anything to have Coach Saban as our coach. (as much as I hate to say it) From everything I’ve read about him, he is totally upfront to the recruits. The bigger issue is the fact that these kids don’t get paid. They should all be making 6 figure salaries, when you consider how much money they bring in. Go start a website about that.
May 24th, 2010 - 07:24
What’s the big deal?
There is nothing against the rules here. Now if they go into fall practice above 85, then (and only then) there is a problem.
May 24th, 2010 - 09:10
SoccerMike, here’s the link you’ve been asking for. A Bama player forced from the team for violating team rules. He disagrees.
http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/08/08/ex-bama-cb-heading-to-usm-denies-violating-team-rules/
Hey, Josua. Do you want to know a fun fact? In Alabama, sending threatening emails is a misdemeaner.
http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/13A-11-8.htm
How many of those emails have you gotten from Bama fans?
May 24th, 2010 - 10:09
*Joshua Sorry for the typo.
May 24th, 2010 - 17:57
A bunch…lol…and, yes, I know about the law…lol. I read about it immediately after getting my first threat.
May 24th, 2010 - 19:21
Thank you and I stand corrected. But I did look and only found one regarding a Arkansas player.
May 24th, 2010 - 13:03
Maybe I’m just naive but I really don’t understand how you explain an obvious discrepancy. If you have 66 players returning, I’m assuming those are underclassman who have not graduated and who are currently on scholarship. When you give out 28 scholarship offers, I would assume that will exceed the 85 limit (even in the South). If you extend 5th years to players who have already graduated, it makes the matter worse.
How can anyone possibly argue that players aren’t being forced out or forced into taking medical red-shirts or some other means to get them off the roster.
May 30th, 2010 - 16:08
I think the issue here isn’t that the players lose a scholarship, because there seems to be little or no evidence that anyone has. I think the issue is that one tOSU fan in particular wishs the SEC had less talented players on the field.
May 24th, 2010 - 14:51
Why dont you rename this site “AlabamaHater.com” since you obviously don’t want to take the time to do the research to locate any other schools yourself. This is a pathetic attempt to get attention. That is like me having a site that is callled “www.highestjumpever.com” then listing my own personal record of 2 feet. Then directing others to look up there own information on other high jumps if they disagree. HMMM how about we dont and we just go polish the crystal football that you wish you had AUBBIE!
May 24th, 2010 - 15:25
Well, you already said that 1/4 of the ACC does……..
May 24th, 2010 - 15:28
Wow, the Saban-aniacs are going nuts.
Its bad enough when a coach has to pull their offer because another player at the same position signed first (should have gotten off your ars* and signed). But once a coach offers and a kid signs, there’s an agreement there.
1) The whole, “It’s just business,” argument is a crock. You use that to justify actions you know are wrong.
2) This isn’t a business. That’s why its wrong. It’s school. There are kids with futures and they don’t need to be lied to or taken advantage of. If you were paying them $3 mil then that’s a different story.
3) I’m sure everyone who left was happy as pie and not runn-oft. At least that’s what elves say in fantasy-land. Just threatening to deny playing time, does not make it all right. Of course they are going to want to leave. You get to run stadium steps and ride the pine…or transfer. hmmm.
4) Once you sign a player, they may suck. That’s the risk you take. If they aren’t giving 100% then that’s a different story, but you can’t just keep signing kids until you get the one you want, and run off the rest.
5) The reason there are stupid rules is because of unethical coaches. No, you can’t give players cars. No, you can’t “loan” them cars. No, you can’t “loan” their parents cars. No you can’t give them jobs where they don’t show. You can only call them between the hours of X and Y. Uggh. These coaches are
6) Just because guys don’t qualify, transfer, etc. doesn’t mean you can expect this and oversign. The rules allow for this already. 85 players when how many actually see the field? Sure some key people may get hurt all at the same time…but that’s part of the game. It’s the same for the other team. That’s why you have backups on your team in the first place.
7) No one is attacking the SEC. Alabama and Ole Miss alone aren’t the SEC. I know Bammers like to think they are. Some SEC coaches are honest with their kids.
9) If you tell the kids they are only there until someone better comes along, then, fine. Sign as many as you want.
10) Would you want you kid treated this way just because some hyped up recruit comes in and “the numbers just don’t work.” Or in this case…10 extra recruits.
11) Prior comment, “If you were a college coach and had 10 Iffy players what would you do?” You would be a coach because everyone darn one of them has at least 10 iffy players. You don’t lie to them, promise them a scholarship and then kick them to the curb. You shouldn’t have offered them in the first place. If you are dealing with an old coaches players…tough. They were there first and promises were made that you have to live with.
May 30th, 2010 - 16:21
1) If you aren’t familiar with the concept of “it’s business”, then you aren’t living in the real world.
Yes. It’s an agreement for a 1 year renewable scholarship.
2) No, it’s business. It’s a multi-billion dollar business, and has been for years. Grow up.
3) “Threatening to deny them playing time”? Is playing time a right? I don’t think so…
4) That’s yet another reason why scholarships are 1 year renewable.
5) I don’t see your examples as being “stupid rules”.
6) You obviously aren’t in the insurance business, are you?
7) No, someone seems to be attacking Saban, specifically.
9) I’m pretty sure the kids sign a scholarship saying “1 year renewable”.
10) No, but I’m sure Colt McCoy’s parents didn’t like the results of his last game, either. Life ain’t fair. Get over it.
11) You’re complaining because Saban is following the NCAA rules. If your team choses not to do what the rules allow, who’s fault is the “competitive advantage”?
May 24th, 2010 - 16:19
It seems like you have a fascination with the University of Alabama. In fact, I think you should name this site Bama Oversigning. I am not a Bama fan by any means, but follow the SEC. I am familair with the Jimmy Johns, Jeremy Elder issues with the law, yet you use them as an example of “cutting” to get to 85. So when a player is arrested then there is a conspiracy to get them off the team? What about when a player has a health concern? I believe Zeke Knight had some type of blood issue or something like that. So should a school just keep them on the team even though they don’t play?
As for your homework, by challenging fans to find a school with 6 more “to cut” doesn’t prove your point. True this year it may be Alabama yet the next it may be another team. In fact you list 4 teams that have oversigned the past 4 years. Also, did you already discuss with the recruits singed with Alabama if they have qualified or not? If so, I think the NCAA Clearing house could use you as they are really busy at the end of the summer.
Where are your attacks on Baylor, Washington, Iowa State, etc? Why aren’t you targeting Auburn or Ole Miss? You can keep attacking 1 school in general, but most people will grow tired of your attacks. I don’t know if you are a fan of another school or conference, but that’s just how I read it. Pretty neat site in general except for the one sided slant.
To address your survey, which is targeted towards Alabama of course……. you really discredit the hard work the team put out on the field and the practice fields to draw the conclusion that if you oversign then you win a NC. Your premise is naive that oversigning is evil. There are numerous reasons teams oversigning. Back when Jackie Sherril coached Miss St. he would sign many prospects who would not qualify. This was mainly because the state of Mississippi has some of the top JUCO’s. He would build that relationship early on and when the recruit would graduate from JUCO he would have the chance to sign them.
Perhaps the NCAA should drop the maximum players for all SEC teams to give everyone else in the country a chance.
Enjoy! Go SEC!
May 24th, 2010 - 16:22
What’s the big deal? The thousands of students on academic scholarship must retain a higher GPA than the average student to keep that scholarship, so why shouldn’t an athelete live up to an expected level of production in order to keep his? That was the basis of his being offered one, so why can’t it be taken away if he isn’t as good as expected? It is the same with academics, a person is awarded a scholarship if they proved to be smart in high school, but if they can’t adjust to college, they will lose it. The same standard should be applied to football. If a player goes out and parties every weekend and can’t keep up with the conditioning, and doesn’t study the playbook enough, he is not living up to what Saban and his staff expect, and they should have the right to push him off of scholarship. I would only have a problem with it if they don’t explain this to the player beforehand, and I wouldn’t expect that to be the problem with Saban.
As for Jackson, why would he want to stay? He’ll never see the field in meaningful playing time, and while he is a fine player, he is not the caliber of the NFL, meaning that College is the end of his career. Why would anybody want to end it on the bench, especially when he could go to another program and likely be their starter.
May 24th, 2010 - 16:53
Alabama must offer that many kids….the region is improverished and poorled educted, many will not qualify academically for admittance, even in the SEC.
May 24th, 2010 - 18:37
Correction: poorly educated. lol.
May 24th, 2010 - 20:17
Yup, we need them good-play’n atheletes to come down here ‘n do well so’s that we can improve this here recession we gots on here. If’n they win unother champinship this year, we may get some of that ‘lectristy we keep hear’n bout.
Geez, what an idiot.
May 24th, 2010 - 18:26
Many Alabama fans will be troubled by these findings, but some will react in a predictable way. There’s a long tradition in the Deep South of defending the indefensible. They are good at it, and if they find themselves really backed into a corner they’ll just say, “I don’t care what you think.”
Maybe a few high school prospects will take a look at Nick Saban’s history and realize that if they go to Alabama and for whatever reason don’t perform up to expectations, their scholarship may be in jeopardy. Then they’ll sign with a coach who won’t blame the kid if the coach overestimated his talent.
May 24th, 2010 - 19:17
It is actually his history that is bringing the top recruits in. Also for the first time atleast in a long time UA is recruiting nationally in regions they were not able to reach before. In regards to players looking elsewhere because of the business approach Saban takes, you are a little late to that party. You can find many recruits that have stated the reason they decided to go elsewhere when it came down to UA and another school was because of Saban’s approach that if you want to see the field you better perform day in day out. Unlike the the family atmosphere that Auburn sells. As a fan I have no issue with that. I like that approach just like I am sure their are many recruits that like what Auburn is selling or any other school for that matter. I also understand that the concerns of players being cut per se by Saban is being used by other schools to negative recruit against UA. Recent recruits have commented on it, but again it is a part of the game. The more successful your program becomes the more anti the recruiting trail becomes when recruits visit other campuses.
So to answer you directly yes recruits are already aware of this. Including a few I know I have met personaly that both went on to UA and did not. Again nothing new.
Also as I stated earlier only 2 recruits that Saban has recruited are no longer with the program. Again maybe it is wrong to not honor, as some would put it, a player that was there before he came in, but oh well I am sure Saban is not the only coach to do that. Ask UM players about CRR and how many have left that program or players at UT with their new coach Dooley who really does seem to be a class act and your are hearing that from a Bama fan.
See fans can critcize Saban all they want but the bottom line for any player that does want to play in the NFL the players do know that Saban is one of the best in the business for evaluating talent and preparing a player for the NFL. That comes from NFL coaches and writers and all the college writers. That does not mean he is the only one but is considered one of the best. Also if you read alot of the high profile recruits comments they say that Saban tells them upfront the expectations are high here and only the best will ever see the field. Again I have no issues being told that upfront, but the same held true when I joined the Marine Corps.
Again after next year they will be no excuse about Shula’s players being there or even the need to sign more than spots are availible based on the info we are privy to. Your arguement only demonstrates your inability to see through your own narrow mind. You lump the past decade with what has taken place at UA all on Saban’s lap and yet he only arrived 3 years ago. This has nothing to do with your location of where you reside just your ignorance to understand the situation at hand.
May 24th, 2010 - 21:30
OK, I get it. An 18 year old signs up for the Saban program, eyes wide open. A few years later, doctors explain to him that he has a problem dissipating heat, and it poses serious risk to his vital organs. He should recognize this was a risk he took, and no one should feel sorry for him. Right.
You’ve assumed a lot of arguments I did not make. Read what I said. You’re setting up straw men. I haven’t said anything about the past decade. If Nick stops signing over 25 players a year, now that he’s got his program going, then kudos to him. His own statements suggest he won’t.
May 30th, 2010 - 16:26
Why should he sign less than the allowable limit? Because you don’t like it?
May 24th, 2010 - 19:33
Actually one thing I did find interesting on this site and it was regarding your numbers up top. I thought at first you were refering to UA but I know see that was Auburns numbers for the last four years and that they have the highest amount of oversigning of any school. But not taking into consideration players that have transferred, left for the NFL, or medical reasons are no longer playing which could be significant or not. Out of 65 teams that are in the main 6 BCS conferences only 13 schools have allowed to be signed and commented to offer 85 or fewer scholarships over the last 4 years. Now again arguements can be made for some of those schools regarding NFL, but alot of those schools have not been producing alot of talent but yet have seen alot of attrition.
May 24th, 2010 - 19:36
I hate typing on a laptop. I must be one of those poorly educated fools someone was referring to earlier. Corrections-referring/Auburn’s/ commited
May 24th, 2010 - 20:12
Some schools make money by letting in 50-60,000 students….some work with 25,000…yet do their talking on the field. Shutup and put up some points, or find yourself in the “oops I missed the big game” bowl. Looking at your teams recent track record against the SEC, I wouldn’t want to be in the big game anyway.
May 24th, 2010 - 21:52
Oversigning should be banned by the NCAA. If the NCAA is really there to protect the well being of student athletes then this is a no brainer. The fact that it hasn’t been barred yet is a true black eye for the NCAA. The practice is ridiculous and abuses student athletes to benefit football factories that have no regard for the academic well being of their students.
May 29th, 2010 - 07:19
John, the NCAA must be ins some sort of record book in that case for the longest lasting black eye in history. Where have you been for the past 50 years or so? There have been rules in place like the ones we have now since at least the early 60s. Only the numbers have been adjusted, not the methodology.
The side of this argument that hasn’t been broached yet is why are these kids not being paid. If they are helping to bring in so much revenue for the respective schools, why are they not receiving at least some kind of stipend? Surely it’s not because anyone believes that there is any sort of true amateurism here.
May 24th, 2010 - 22:24
You want other programs? Here ya go….
LSU currently has 91 players on scholarship (Need to cut 6)
Miami currently has 91 players on scholarship (Need to cut 6)
Texas A&M currently has 90 players on scholarship (Need to cut 5)
Washington currently has 88 players on scholarship (Need to cut 3)
Nebraska currently has 87 players on scholarship (Need to cut 2)
Texas was at 88 players on scholarship, had 2 transfer, and now needs to cut 1 more.
May 24th, 2010 - 22:49
Now we are getting somewhere, even though we technically said more than 6 players. Can you provide a better break down of the numbers…how many players returned from the previous year and how many were signed for each school? Also, Alabama has already cut 4 players, have any of these schools cut anyone yet? If so, how many?
May 24th, 2010 - 23:06
Who were the ones UA cut. If you are referring to S Jackson he was a transfer like the 2 mentioned above at Texas, or are you saying because it is Texas a transfer is different than a transfer at UA. We know we disagree on players that have received their diploma and we know your opinion about players receiving medical scholarships, but I am curious why is there a difference when a player transfers. The above poster told you Texas had 2 transfers already so I guess in your words Mack Brown has cut two players already this year.
May 26th, 2010 - 02:14
Ummm… he brought you the numbers like you asked. You’re the one who’s big on all of this, so you do the research and bring up the oversigning that other schools are doing. Now that these numbers have been brought to light, I would assume that the next blog entry will be about the 6 schools noted above… correct? I mean, if this is about oversigning and not Alabama oversigning, that would be a great thing to find. Surely, if there are other schools out there other than Alabama doing it, you would have more strength to your argument.
I for one am looking forward to your next post about at least 1 of the schools mentioned above… because that’s what this site is all about. Right? I hear crickets and see tumbleweeds in the future when it comes to posting about the oversigning for the aforementioned universities.
May 27th, 2010 - 16:27
So Joshua… my friend. You asked for someone to bring numbers and someone did. When are at least 3 out of the 6 schools mentioned above going to get blasted like UA has? Everyone is still waiting to see if this site is truly as unbiased as it claims to be. It’s been 3 days… I won’t hold my breath.
May 25th, 2010 - 00:11
Of course most of these Alabama fans are “good Christians” with “family values” who would never support a “win at any cost” approach to college football, aren’t they?
May 25th, 2010 - 08:51
Attrition happens, period. Would you rather have a coach that knows how plan ahead to make the numbers work, or a coach that doesn’t and ends up having less players on scholarship than is allowed. This site is ridiculous. A scholarship is a year-to-year contract…just like ALL scholarships are!
May 25th, 2010 - 11:10
If you can find an actual list of which students are actually on scholarship and which ones are considered “walk-ons,” “academic scholarship,” and “Bryant Foundation scholarship” holders, that would definitely help out. I believe the limit is 85 scholarship players. That’s not 85 players. Coaches would be wise to use Saban’s approach.
May 25th, 2010 - 11:22
This is my first time here, and I have to admit that after reading the diatribe above, SoccerMike and few others are clearly in some state of denial. The site’s author clearly states that the practice is legal, but that it is unethical – and it is.
It’s ‘legal’ for you to commit adultery, but it’s hardly ethical.
This is the same argument made here, and SoccerMike, you are firing blanks in this gunfight.
May 25th, 2010 - 14:38
I’ll bite. Why? Why is it unethical? If a person shows talent in high school, he should be awarded a full-paid scholarship through the University regardless of what he does once he gets there? How is this right? As I pointed out in a comment earlier, academic scholarships all have performance requirements tied to them – if a student falls below a certain gpa, he will lose an academic scholarship. How is it wrong, then to do the same with an atheletic scholarship if the person fails to live up to the exceptations?
The author of this page does a very good job of criticizing this practice, but fails to explain this question.
May 25th, 2010 - 14:39
[expectations] – sorry.
May 26th, 2010 - 05:11
It becomes unethical when a college makes a conscious decision to ask more kids to play than can possibly be allowed. If none of them fall by the wayside due to academics, medical issues, or legal problems, the coaching staff will be FORCED to yank scholarships from otherwise qualified student-athletes (they wouldn’t have offered the kid in the first place if he wasn’t notionally capable of playing at that level).
That means the college has made a decision to pull the scholarship of someone who could have gone elsewhere with no such problem. If they don’t do that, they will commit an NCAA major violation. Do you really think any coach tells any kid that he only “kinda-sorta” has a scholarship waiting? Or that “we’ll see how fall camp goes and then decide whether you’ll stay?” Of course, they don’t – that’s what makes it unethical.
May 26th, 2010 - 09:34
That’s a decent argument, but for it to apply, you must project your negative image of Saban into the scenario. You assume things that may or may not be going on. I could project a more positive light: Saban goes to a player like Star Jackson, a pretty good player and athelete but a guy that has gotten passed by underclassmen on the depth chart. He explains to him that he won’t likely ever play any significant time and that he doesn’t have the skill to make it in the NFL. This means that he will end his career as a college player. Saban then tells him he is welcome to stay, but he understands if he wants to transfer somewhere where he can get playing time. To me, there is nothing wrong with that. Why keep a kid spending his last fews years as an athelete delegated to the bench? Why not encourage him to transfer where he can play? It may not be what the kid wants to hear, but what is wrong with the truth?
While you make a decent argument you didn’t answer my question about how it is different from academic scholarships. Are those unethical to you as well?
May 26th, 2010 - 10:37
An academic scholarship usually has defined measureables to maintain (ie GPA, community service, etc). A football scholarship doesn’t have those measurables.
In the living room of a prospective player does Saban say the schorarship will be renewed on a yearly basis contingent on performance on the field? Of course not.
May 26th, 2010 - 11:55
Catch 5 – I don’t know what “negative image of Saban” you think I hold, but I’m just a nobody college football fan in southern Virginia putting up with goofy Hokie fans and snobby UVA fans. Saban, Alabama, and the SEC are nowhere in my world.
Also, my daughter has an academic scholarship and must maintain a certain GPA to keep it – BUT SHE KNEW THAT CONDITION FROM DAY ONE (and its an objective measure done by people with no vested interest in whether she keeps her scholarship or not). If coaches need to clear some roster room, do you really think it is the kid’s interest they have at heart – or the avoidance of a major NCAA infraction?
May 25th, 2010 - 19:51
Actually I have never had an issue with the supposed purpose of this site. My arguement was that the owner came about it in a way to slam Saban and UA, or other SEC teams when the opportunity presented itself. I agree that oversigning along with a few other practices are dirty little secrets that the NCAAA does a horrible job with policing and looking out for the best interest of the player. But I have argued that this site seems to focus on Saban and UA way to much. I am not the only one that feels that way because many more posters would agree with that than not, just count all the replies. I also agree I have been part of the issue regarding SEC vs Big-10 but I do enjoy a good arguement and again I find that the topic of this site has concerns that need to be addressed. But I disagree when the site is here for purposes other than a rival fan to use it to discredit another program as I feel and many others do. He has remained vigilant in his debate that he does not have issues with Saban, UA, or the SEC, but I have completely disagreed and feel this is solely the work of a OSU fan that dispises the above mentioned.
Now after finding out who the owner is, which surprises me that he is from AL, I no longer see the validity of this site for what it should represent. He is an OSU fan as I assumed earlier and he hates Saban, UA, and the SEC. Here are a few quotes from him on Ozone a OSU board that he posts on daily and I was able to confirm through many of his posts that this site does belong to him.
“Zero respect, 100% hatred. Damn we need a win against an SEC team soon, just to shut these idiots up.”
“The academics in the SEC are crap and outside of football the SEC has NOTHING to offer, other than maybe an opportunity for someone to teach at the college level who doesn’t want to deal with snow in the winter…outside of that they don’t have jack sh!t to offer potential candidates for expansion. ”
And there are many more just go to the Ozone and look for posts by 7NCs7Heisman. See a site created for the sole purpose of making others aware of something wrong is one thing but a site created based on one persons vendetta is another. Maybe you truly have a concern for oversigning and players but you also use this site as a platform to demonstrate your hatred for Saban, UA, and the SEC. Enjoy it but please understand this site is not unbiased by any means.
May 25th, 2010 - 20:36
SoccerMike and others,
Would you feel the same way about Saban if it was YOUR son that was asked/nudged to give up his scholarship for the next young hot-shot?
May 28th, 2010 - 11:27
Here is Auburns magic number. http://www2.oanow.com/oan/sports/college/article/au_football_depth_wont_be_a_concern_in_2010/128512/