1. 

   Lee Roi Jordan
   June 5th, 2010 - 07:40

   It’s refreshing to see more fact and less vitriol. Kudos to a TAMU fan for actually doing the research rather than merely bashing the site. I agree that it would be helpful to learn the details of the two dropped/deferred 2010 signees as well as the transfer. Let’s hope TAMU does better in 2011.

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   • 

     Joshua
     June 5th, 2010 - 09:06

     Well said, LRJ. Thanks for visiting the site and contributing – wish we had more readers like you, Mario, and a few others.

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   • 

     Travis
     June 5th, 2010 - 13:28

     My first comment in the “On the Clock” post included the reason why two of the class of 2010 would not receive scholarships. One of the recruits will grayshirt until Dec. 2010 while recovering from injury, and one has dual-signed with a Junior College and is not expected to be eligible for the Fall. This information was out before NSD and was not a response to oversigning.

     Regarding the transferring player, he was competing for a starting spot at defensive end until he was suspended. The article below explains everything. This was not a case of A&M dumping a player to make room.
     http://www.beaumontenterprise.com/sports/local/a_m_football_player_transfers_to_lu_after_arrest.html

     What no one has commented on is the result of not oversigning. A&M had 77 scholarship athletes last year. This led to 18 true freshmen playing along with a couple of walk-ons hitting the field. Normal player attrition has to be anticipated for when you’re recruiting. Recruiting decommits are also an issue as A&M had two signing day decommits. The best a coach can be asked to do is get close to 85 on NSD.

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     • 

       Joshua
       June 5th, 2010 - 17:45

       That’s right. Coaches that exercise ethics in the recruiting process and who are not looking to game the system will do the best they can to get to 85 without putting themselves or the players in a position to have to make cuts. The only way to hit 85 on the nose and do it on the up and up is to know exactly how many you have coming back and then sign the exact number you need and make sure you sign players that will qualify. This is extremely hard to do. That is why many coaches will do the best they can to get to 85 on the up and up and then use the one or two open spots, should they fall short, to reward a walk-on who has worked hard, kept his nose clean and deserves a 1 year free ride. That is the only way to do it on the up and up.

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   • 

     SoccerMike
     June 5th, 2010 - 23:08

     Actually several UA fans have provided info regarding why players were transferring or why their scholarship was not renewed due to off the field issues, but the response was that Saban was basically forcing them out and the stories of the players leaving were all propaganda. This site even blames Saban for misjudging players by recruiting them that are no longer with the program. The problem with that is he did not recruit all the players that have left.

     See UA fans that bring any info to the site that might paint a different picture of Saban or UA get slammed for dong it, so yes eventually those fans will become angry. Now I understand that some do it from the start but not all of us were that way in the beginning. It goes both ways.

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     • 

       James
       June 6th, 2010 - 07:24

       Are there Alabama fans who have come to this site to inform/persuade without flying off the handle? Yes, there are (take Mario or, if you want a defender of oversigning, “Bama grad whos not from Bama” from the Blake Sims article, for instance), but they have been few and far between. Most Bama fans who defend their roster and the reasons for players leaving the program are full of vitriol, but aren’t willing to make the concessions that are necessary to start a debate in good faith, like the fact that Alabama has to rely on unnaturally high levels of attrition or else force players to leave the program, or that Alabama Ground Zero for oversigning talk because of the numbers AND because of Saban’s quote regarding oversigning. I don’t want to insult you any more than is necessary, but you’re the worst poster on this site because you’re convinced the site’s creator hates Bama and you add nothing to the conversation besides repeating that over and over.

       But you know what? If you stop making the ad hominem attacks and start participating in this site with good faith, you’ll find that we’ll LISTEN (gasp!) to what you have to say.

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       • 

         Joshua
         June 6th, 2010 - 08:46

         Some of the guys that come here are simply unwilling to own anything; most of them start out in complete denial on this topic. SoccerMike and Deepsthboy are prime examples. They both started out claiming that oversiging didn’t exist, that we weren’t looking at or counting the numbers right; then when they finally realized the numbers were right the next stage of denial was that there is ethically nothing wrong with this practice; then we heard about how it is legal and how the NCAA encourages the practice, and so on and so forth. Everything that they have held up as been defeated, which is why we see the personal attacks and the claims that this site is just bias because it comes from a Big 10 fan.

         We have shown that oversigning has cultural roots in the southeast, specifically in the state of Alabama:

         http://oversigning.com/testing/index.php/2010/02/13/history-lesson/

         We have shown that oversigning was a large contributor to Georgia Tech leaving the SEC back in 1964, thus reinforcing its historical roots and establishing that is was a problem and still remains a problem:

         http://oversigning.com/testing/index.php/2010/02/14/why-did-georgia-tech-leave-the-sec/

         We have provided data charts that show the number of players signed by all BCS schools, and those charts reinforce the cultural history of oversigning in the SEC:

         http://oversigning.com/testing/index.php/recruiting-numbers/

         We have provided links to articles where Division 1 coaches are on record about the practice of oversigning and how it creates a competitive advantage:

         http://oversigning.com/testing/index.php/2010/05/27/tracy-smith-this-is-for-you/
         http://oversigning.com/testing/index.php/2010/03/11/gerry-dinardo-circa-1996/

         We have provided video of footage of a coach explaining why it’s important not to go over the limit and how to avoid going over the limit by giving scholarships to walk-ons and rewarding them, which A.) makes sure you don’t waste a scholarship and deny someone an opportunity to have their education paid for, and B.) keeps you from using oversigned recruits as a hedge against attrition:

         http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTTZpeXb044&feature=player_embedded

         We have provided an open forum for readers to provide feedback and help shed light on other schools or issues surrounding oversigning and we have openly explored those items:

         http://oversigning.com/testing/index.php/2010/05/29/on-the-clock/

         We have provided diagrams that outline how an oversigned roster is built and how a roster is built without oversigning:

         http://oversigning.com/testing/index.php/2010/03/26/night-and-day/

         Basically, all SoccerMike and DeepsthBoy have brought to the table is that this is just a site that hates Alabama.

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         • 

           SoccerMike
           June 6th, 2010 - 10:29

           See your opinion without facts. My first posts on here were interest in the site and you basically stated that your site was the gospel on the matter. I came here in the beginning because I was curious, not because I was upset. I probably was one of the first UA posters. So now what you accuse me of, you are doing by attacking me now. Bitter are we?

           My concern was always that you only showed one side of the story, which does not help others to make a fair assesment. I have never questioned the fact that UA has oversigned. I have never questioned that Saban has oversigned, but I will question when you make remarks about either one that has no truth. You accuse Saban and you do on one of your earlier post that he misjudged talent and how he could be so wrong on so many but yet the players you were reffering to most of which he did not recruit. So it is when you try and take out your dislike for him and UA when it is not neccesary that gets people upset. You making that comment have no value to this site.

           I have never conceded anything on here. I have always agreed Saban has oversigned. I agree that he also has used the loophole to get rid of players that he did not or would not of recruited that had off the field issues. Go look I have posted that before. So he cleaned house of players that did not deserve to be there. Again only 2 players he ever recruited transferred under his watch at UA. Not bad for 3 years at a program. Let us go find other programs that only had 2 players recruited by the current coach transfer in that time frame. Texas has had 2 already this year. Now you will come back with your version of what happen but again that is your opinion. See I am not denying anything just your theory on why these players are no longer there. Neither of us have proof but yet your get angry with posters that do not agree with you and your site. No denying on my part but their is a difference between fiction and non-fiction.

           To James, I have posted alot of information to help other see both sides. It does not mean that it will persuade them to see it different. But when only one side of the arguement is shown what good does it do. Joshua only like posters that supprt his version of events. Anyone else that brings anything else to the table that might show a different version he jumps all over them. See when you post about players and the issues that they transferred were because on off the field issues that brings some light of why they left. But to Joshua if it happens at UA it is Saban being evil, but just a transfer or players violating rules at other schools. If you do not believe go read all the threads where posters have talked about players getting in trouble and you will see Joshua saying if he didn’t oversign they would stay. Saban is notorious for discipline on the team. Did he have the advantage of oversigning because he knew he could make room yes, but those players were gone whether he could replace them or not. Now in Joshua’s world if you read his posts, if Saban could not oversign he would have kept those players on the team. Sorry my opinion they are still gone.

           See a debate goes both ways, it is not a onesided arguement like Joshua wants it to be. In the beginning, and go look at my first post I asked questions and tried to get more info because I was concerned how the story was being told. But after being told so many times that my opinion has no merit because his is the only one that is right, yes it does get people upset. You want open debate we bring it. I even now try and post to get a debate going but yet he takes shots at me. Fine I have no issue with it because it just shows he has a personal agenda and it has nothing to do with the players involved. If it was truly about the players involved he would not get upset and attack people back. He would not have to justify his side if the site was created to be unbiased and would not get so upset when people disagree. Open debate allows for both sides to communicate their opinion without Joshua continually telling them they are wrong.

           Also Joshua I really do not care that you are a diehard OSU fan and that you dislike Saban, UA, SEC, and the SEC fans very much. I find it amusing that you denied it in the beginning so adamantly to defend your site. I will never deny that my favorite CFB team is UA. BTW when I found out about you on the Ozone it was told to me by two posters on different rival sites I am on. They were talking about you on there. Not UA sites but other SEC sites and about your rant on the Ozone towards the above mentioned topics. So I went there and read it for myself because I wanted see for myself and not hear someone elses version about you. Yes you dislike Saban very much along with the SEC and its fans. I also know that you think if Saban did not oversign he would have not won a NC at LSU and UA. And that goes for any SEC school. That is fine with me, but to keep this site unbiased do not bring it here like you have.

           I do think this site has value and when people like Mario and a few others bring up good discussion points they add value to it. This demonstrates by the numbers that there are issues out there that should be addressed. But maybe you should follow their lead and not make it so personal. Because every time you attack a UA poster all you do is make it personal.

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           • 

             Joshua
             June 6th, 2010 - 14:31

             @Mike
             Just for the record, I actually felt a little guilty for lumping you in with deepsthboy – I probably should have put catch5 in there instead.

             However, I went back and filtered the comments section for all of your entries starting from the beginning. Here’s your first post on the site:

             “Since this site seems to ignore all rules set by the NCAA let me educate you on this and if you do not agree please look it up. If a player was recruited by a school for football but receives a scholarship for another sport and then walks-on the football team they become a counter for the football team and their scholarship counts as a football scholarship. This prevents schools from using other sports to get free players for the football team.”

             This supports my claim that most of you come on here and the very first thing you do is accuse us of not knowing how recruiting works or how to count players, etc., etc.

             From your second post on the site:

             “What I do find amusing though is the write-ups. Anyone that follows the sport really could care-less for the ramblings you provide other than the entertainment. At first I saw on boards where fans were upset now it is more of a joke. I think people look at the sight with the same enthusiasm they would while waiting in line at the grocery store and seeing the tabloids on the rack. Good for humor but other than that very lacking in substance.”

             It sure doesn’t sound to me like you came to this site with all kinds of objectivity and interest, much less open-mindedness or a willingness to debate the topic like a gentleman.

             You have posted 77 comments on this site. It wasn’t until #70 that you actually came clean and admitted that Alabama has oversigned players:

             “Has UA oversigned yes. Has Saban while at UA oversigned yes. Have players left while at UA under Saban yes. Were the majority of these players recruited by Saban no. Has Saban via the oversigning loophole help to fill the roster or maintain 85 max on the roster while removing players that had off the field and in the classroom issues, yes. He was able to work within the shaded areas of the rules and keep the roster filled. Where we disagree is if oversigning was not allowed these players would still be gone. You seem to imply he would have kept them if the space allowed and whether you like Saban or not he does discipline his team and will not tolerate the behavior of those former players even if it meant having less than 85 on the team. But your site seems to follow the thinking it would be wrong to boot them from the team because of promised education and playing opportunity at UA.”

             And even then you rationalize it as Saban cleaning house and that the majority of the players he cut weren’t his and the only reason they are gone is because of discipline, which doesn’t explain Grant and Sikes not being granted the last year of their eligibility, but I digress.

             I’m glad I took the time to go back and review all of your posts, as it has removed any feeling of guilt I had about lumping you in with deepsthboy.

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             • 

               SoccerMike
               June 6th, 2010 - 19:40

               My intention in the beginning was to look at the site with open mindedness, but now that you got me to go back and read the site and all the articles it is very apparent in the beginning that you wrote it up with bias. This site is suppose to be about oversigning, but yet you compare academics, endowments, and other things. Also in the beginning you were always comparing Saban and UA to Tressel and OSU, but again no big deal because as of late, except when you are going after a poster, you seem to not use as much bias now. I will give you that. I have stated all that because you accuse a lot of UA fans about making it UA vs. OSU, but your site did that in the beginning.

               Also no matter when I said UA oversigned I have never denied it. Just my points were to address other implications that were made by the site.

               My stance for the first time on here now, is that oversigning should be looked at, as it can have a negative impact on the game. CFB is becoming too much of a business and if that is the path the NCAA is going to allow it to follow than the players should be treated as professionals meaning the schools should have to start paying them. Now I am against that and CFB becoming a real business. I enjoy it for the FB atmosphere and the passion that both the fans and the players demonstrate. I think though to eliminate oversigning and being abused the NCAA needs to address certain things first. Like Mario said all players should have to be qualified prior to being able to sign a NLI. I have placed over a 100 kids into college for a different sport of which these kids I coached. Each of those players were accepted into the school before they signed their NLI. Just like any normal student who goes to college they are accepted prior to 2nd semester grades being final.

               Also any athlete that is not going to have their scholarship renewed should be told prior to 2nd semester starting. It will not affect the 2nd semester because scholarships are good for the whole year. This way they have to opportunity to better weigh their future options and like Mario said go through an exit interview. It would accomplish somewhat of the idea of having a recruiting budget. Now the staff already knows what spots are available and will only be able to take players that have already been accepted or qualified to be accepted by the school. I actually think that each player should have to be already accepted to the school prior to signing the NLI and be accepted the same as any student. Like others have stated and I know from players I have coached that went onto college that it is even harder for an athlete to pass because of the athletic commitment. The standards should be set higher for them I believe because more is being asked, but they should at least have to meet the same standards as a non-athlete trying to get in. The NCAA needs to get rid of the sliding scale that allows borderline players to be accepted. Hence their language refers to them as student athletes. This would keep schools from oversigning based on academic concerns and help to get more players get their education and receive a degree if better students were recruited that could also play ball.

               Another thing is if any player fails in the classroom it should be the school’s responsibility to make sure that player has a chance to become successful in the classroom. Meaning the moment the player struggles or let us say gets put on academic probation he should be suspended from all team practices, and the team should be required to keep him on the whole next year and be counted against the 85. I hear all the time the recruits talk about how the school tells them about tutors and the help they will get. They should make sure they get it. If after a year of not playing and the student does not bring up their grades than the school does not have to renew their scholarships. These schools have the resources and there should be no reason a kid does not find success in the classroom whatsoever.

               Also once it is known that certain scholarships will not be renewed the school should have to submit to the NCAA each players case and let them determine if it should be or not renewed. Especially with players transferring. If the case is because the player is seeking more playing time than the NCAA should be more relaxed of making a player sit out a year. This would at least allow the kid to not lose a year. Also the school at that time would be informing the NCAA basically how many spots were going to be available. If the school is going to backcount players the NCAA not the league should determine if they can. See if the NCAA knows ahead of time how many players are not returning they actually start monitoring incoming classes. Right now they have no clue of what is taken place so how can they control it.

               See I believe that if the NCAA tightens up on how players qualify and requires scholarships renewals for athletes to be informed earlier that oversigning will not happen. Higher qualifications would mean coaches would have to recruit a student also not just an athlete. I also believe the limit should be 25 to be signed per the rule of max scholarships for incoming players unless the NCAA allowed for backcounting to the previous class. I am not for more regulations of the NCAA over schools, but the NCAA does need to maintain better protection for those players who do come in. That is also why I have no issue with a player that gets hurt going a medical scholarship and finishing out his degree and not being a counter. It is not the teams fault the player got hurt so why should they be penalized for a roster spot and it is not the players fault they got hurt so why should they not be allowed to continue their education for free. I also have no issue whatsoever for a player that gets their degree but their scholarship is not renewed with remaining eligibility. By that time if they could go to the NFL they would have already and the only thing they were promised was an education which they got, and an opportunity to play football which they also got.

               Another problem to address is oversigning regarding EEs. EEs are not allowed to sign a NLI unless they are a JUCO player. That is stated very clearly on the NLI websit/ Meaning they come into the spring semester accepting a scholarship for that spring and have to get it renewed just like everyone else. The purpose of the NLI is to make sure the players get at least a 1 year scholarship. They have no protection whatsoever. They come into the spring and could be gone by the summer. A reason Auburn was able to sign so many with the combination of backcounters. These players should have to sign a NLI and count towards the incoming class unless approved otherwise.

               See if the NCAA closes up its on loopholes, oversigning will just fade away. So I see oversigning as a result of larger issues that need to be addressed way before it does. It is like band-aiding an illness instead of finding an illness. The reason drug companies make so much money. They just provide drugs to better manage the illness so they can keep you buying longer than investing in the cure and a onetime fix. The NCAA controls the fix for the solution. It should be their goal and it is their responsibility to look out for the players.

               Now you know exactly where I stand for what it is worth regarding these recruits and how I think the system needs to be fixed.

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               • 

                 Joshua
                 June 6th, 2010 - 23:38

                 Mike, it is all good man…I think we have all discovered together that there is a problem with the entire signing process, everything from making sure guys qualify on the front end to making sure coaches don’t take more than they have room for. I know the Saban / Tressel comparisons rub people the wrong way, but the honest truth of the matter is that they provide the best comparison between oversigning and not oversigning.

                 I think we can continue to discuss oversigning and the related topics and remain civil.

                 Thanks for visiting the site.

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2. 

   SoccerMike
   June 6th, 2010 - 19:52

   Not sure where to post this but I remember reading one poster talking about how JUCOs could throw off the number. Now I have not really researched this but found it on a Texas board I am on and it is from a Texas poster. But very interesting regarding Kansas State and how they recruit JUCOs. I guess I have never really seen that many in one class go to a school. But it would explain why K State is so high on the list for oversigning, but they actually might not have oversigned at all. Again I have not researched it but it does bring a different scenario to the table. Someone else can do the math if they want to.

   …”From 2006-08, they signed 97 players, which looks really bad, until you consider that they delve heavily into the juco ranks. In 2006, they signed 30 players, but 12 of them were jucos. That means in the 2008 class, they’d have 12 positions open on their roster. In 2007, they signed 34 players, 7 of which were jucos. The 2008 class had 33 signees, but 20 of them were jucos. If all of those 20 jucos played at Kansas State the last two seasons, K-State had 20 spots to fill on their roster in the ‘10 class. They signed 17 players in the 2010 class. They’re not oversigning.”…..

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   • 

     Joshua
     June 6th, 2010 - 21:45

     We never said Kanas State was guilty of oversigning and we touched on the JUCO affect on the numbers here:

     “The table below is not a listing of teams from worst oversigners to least (we never said it was by the way). It is simply the number of players that signed letters of intent (referred to as “commits”) for each BCS school, sorted by the highest number of players signed to the lowest. Granted, there is a strong connection between having a high number of players signed and oversigning. However, not all teams that have high numbers are guilty of oversigning. One reason for this could be the use of JUCO players that only have 2 years of eligibility, another reason could be consecutive years of attrition during the regular season or after national signing day on classes that were not oversigned. For example, if a team has room for 23 guys and they take 22 and then 5 guys transfer during the spring, the team will go into the fall short 6…if this happens a couple of years in a row you could see teams with a high average number but yet never oversigned. They too have a problem but it is not oversigning.”

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     • 

       SoccerMike
       June 6th, 2010 - 21:59

       I know I was just pointing out the numbers I saw on that site. Just thought it was interesting plus I have never seen a team sign so many JUCOs before. I am still not sure whether they oversigned or not because I did not do the math. Just adding something I saw.

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3. 

   deepsthboy
   June 7th, 2010 - 08:12

   Personally, I am just waiting with bated breath for the upcoming coup de gras. I have heard through the grapevine that an unnamed player has accused unnamed coaches from an unnamed program of doing “mean” things to other unnamed players. I hope you have Bob Ley’s and Morley Safer’s direct line phone numbers, because you are getting ready to blow the lid off this mutha. As we say here in the South, DANG. With a detailed confession like this one, I hope you don’t bother too much with fact checking.

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   • 

     Joshua
     June 7th, 2010 - 09:28

     You are a tool. I hate to say that about a reader but you earned. Why I let your junk go through is beyond me…maybe I will start blocking your comments again since you bring nothing to the table.

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     • 

       deepsthboy
       June 7th, 2010 - 10:21

       Josh, all I have to do is scroll through ten or so of your posts to see you taking shot after shot at me and my thoughts on this topic. So would it be your opinion that since it’s your website that you can do this with impunity while if I attempt to discredit your efforts the appropriate response for you is just to tell your “readers” that I refuse to discuss it in a gentlemanly fashion? You’re amazing, dude. You need to decide if this is a bully pulpit or if it’s fully open. If it’s a bully pulpit, then fine. But if it’s open, then it’s open.

       Yes, I saw your “Woodward and Bernstein” post this morning. Personally, I think it’s hogwash, and that if you make the mistake of just posting “news” or “information” before you have fully vetted it, then you run the risk of having this become a TMZ-like site. Maybe you don’t care. That is certainly your prerogative.

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     • 

       BuckeyeXB
       June 7th, 2010 - 10:28

       Josh, deepsthboy loves to think he is clever and down with lingo (who says mutha other than P Funk?) and of course he is not. As I mentioned before, if the Big Ten was doing this (especially tOSU) he would have started his own website.

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   • 

     Joshua
     June 8th, 2010 - 00:27

     “Heard through the grapevine”…lol…I almost fell out of my chair on that one…more like “as I was reading through every post on the ozone to find something to discredit oversigning.com I read a post that an unnamed player…”

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4. 

   Mario
   June 7th, 2010 - 09:57

   @Mike

   Good post with solutions…I might have to take a look at researching this topic, its impact and solutions for a future research project… …the only problem is that the information is so hard to come by…why a player transfers or quits and what happens to them after they transfer or quit is not always clear…

   Good Conversation!

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5. 

   Devoted Ag
   June 8th, 2010 - 10:42

   WRT to A&M’s class:

   One of the 24 (Tramone Mickens) is a “sign and place”, meaning he will go to a juco with hopes of gaining entrance next year. Another of the 24 (Gramling) is a grayshirt.

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6. 

   john_on_a_cellphone
   June 8th, 2010 - 16:40

   Do you guys (the authors) know of other schools that have oversigned, and are hiding it (couched in your terms as waiting for us to do the homework)? Some of your previous writings make it appear that this is the case.

   If so, when will you reveal the answer?

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   • 

     Joshua
     June 8th, 2010 - 18:46

     We have an idea about a few schools, but like we’ve said from the beginning it is really hard to investigate all of these schools and the hope for this website was to raise awareness and get football fans to join in the research.

     Next recruiting season, as we near NSD, we will put a lot of effort into gathering everyone’s recruiting budget so that everyone knows exactly how many spots each team has on signing day…we will then monitor the number of players signed in order to see who goes over.

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