Slightly Off-Topic, But Still Relevant
The primary focus around here is oversigning, but from time to time you can't help but talk about academic standards and players qualifying when you talk about oversigning. Those supporting oversigning often point to issues with finding enough guys to qualify academically to fill their roster. We have mentioned here several times that we equate oversigning to hedging against attrition and how some schools have the luxury of doing it and some schools do not or will not.
Here is a prime example of how not being able to hedge can really bite you in recruiting. Rich Rodriguez's prize recruit and the highest rated recruit for the entire Big 10 conference will most likely not play at Michigan this year, or next, or ever. Demar Dorsey will likely not make it into school at Michigan this year, despite meeting the NCAA Clearinghouse requirements and being an NCAA qualifier.
Dorsey, the Big Ten's highest-rated recruit according to ESPN Recruiting, hasn't been allowed to enroll at Michigan, his high school coach Mark James told Corey Long.
"Demar is an NCAA qualifier with a 2.5 or 2.6 GPA and an 18 score on the ACT," said James. "But he hasn't yet been granted at Michigan."
Controversy surrounded Dorsey's commitment to Michigan when it was disclosed that he was arrested twice as a juvenile. He was acquitted on a charge of robbery with a deadly weapon in 2008 and had a previous charge of burglary dismissed.
James suggested that some of Dorsey's issues with his admission may stem from his previous transgressions with the law.
Both James and another source close to Dorsey told ESPN.com that Michigan's coaching staff is still working very hard to get him admitted.
http://espn.go.com/blog/ncfnation/post/_/id/22938/dorsey-situation-tests-michigan-rodriguez-bond
This brings a lot of areas of discussion to the table:
1. How is Dorsey affected by this? He signed a LOI to a JUCO as a backup plan, but you have to think the kid was excited about clearing the NCAA clearinghouse and going to Michigan. Will he end up at another D1 school on scholarship? Rodriguez's comments about JUCO players are pretty interesting; pretty much he is saying that if Dorsey goes to JUCO it is unlikely that he will be able to come back to Michigan because of the issues with credits from JUCO transferring to Michigan. This sure sheds some light on the JUCO farm leagues in Mississippi.
In November, he spoke about wanting to sign a junior college player or two but not getting his hopes up.
“There’s not a lot of transferrable credits for junior-college guys to come in here,” Rodriguez said. “Sometimes people look at that as a quicker fix. That’s not going to really be an option for us just because of the academic differences.”
From the link above to the ESPN article.
Regardless, you have to feel for Dorsey who thought he was going to Michigan and is now looking elsewhere. A lot of this can be solved by changing the signing process - one of our readers Mario, former linebacker at Alabama, has had some great insight and good ideas in this regard.
2. Are academic requirements really different across conferences and is it true that just because a guy clears the NCAA doesn't mean he will get into school?
3. How is Michigan going to be affected by this loss? Had they been able to hedge their attrition by oversigning, would they have taken another player just in case?
4. What kind of competitive advantage is it to be able to oversign?
5. Does Rivals and Scout include the potential to qualify as part of their rating system??? Here we have the highest rated recruit for Michigan, and the Big 10, but at the end of the day, if he doesn't qualify how high should he really be rated? If Rivals and Scout and all the other recruiting ranking services leave out academics or the ability to qualify it should be considered just as bad as if they left out a player's ability to read defenses or run a fast 40 time. We see now why Randy Edsall was so livid about recruiting services.
6. Are part of Rich Rodriguez's problems at Michigan related in some way to the change in culture he is experiencing? A guy like Dorsey would be lock to get into West Virginia, wouldn't he?
This could be a crushing blow to Michigan's secondary as Dorsey was expected to come in right away and help shore up a position of need.
Against Oversigning
In Favor of Oversigning
Blogroll
- Atholon Sports
- CFBDataWarehouse
- CFN – College Football News
- NCPA – Website
- NCSA – Athletic Recruiting
- POPA – Parents of Players Association
- RTN – Reform the NCAA
- The Drake Group
2011 Oversigning Cup
ESPN OTL Oversigning Video
Oversigning.com on Twitter
- @GerdOzone imagine what that number would be had he oversigned at the rate of Saban/Miles/Nutt/Petrino.
- @greggdoyelcbs someone tell the NCAA to call me.
- Fwiw, I just wanted to ban oversigning, you guys.
- @BryanDFischer @andrewjbone remind me again how many guys were in that 2008 class and how many had to be cut to make room for them all.
From People on Twitter
- Alabama and Mississippi were scary places in 1950. But the grandkids are doing a bang-up job: http://t.co/OiKZzyaC
- @JoePas_Doghouse @RowlffDogg Yes, he did.
Reader Survey – Vote Today!
Loading ...Pages
Meta
Categories
- ACC
- Announcements
- Baseball
- Basketball
- Big 10
- Big 10 Expansion
- Big 12
- Big East
- Coaching
- Feedback
- History
- MAC
- NCAA
- Non BCS Conferences
- Off Topic
- PAC 10
- Quick Links
- Rants
- SEC
- SunBelt
- The Oversigning Cup
- Uncategorized
Recent Comments
- Charlie9 on Elliott Porter 2.0
- Charlie9 on Elliott Porter 2.0
- Charlie9 on Elliott Porter 2.0
- Charlie9 on Elliott Porter 2.0
- WTF on Elliott Porter 2.0
Archives
- February 2012
- January 2012
- August 2011
- July 2011
- June 2011
- May 2011
- April 2011
- March 2011
- February 2011
- January 2011
- December 2010
- November 2010
- October 2010
- September 2010
- August 2010
- July 2010
- June 2010
- May 2010
- April 2010
- March 2010
- February 2010
June 8th, 2010 - 11:33
Josh,
Just to give you some background at the University of Georgia. We had a cornerback recruit a few years back that had the exact same situation. He cleared the NCAA requirements, but was not admitted because of earlier transgressions in the system. Michael Grant was granted permission to sign with the University of Arkansas and became an All-SEC cornerback for them. After that, a young man cleared the NCAA, but it was thought that the jump in his last test score was POSSIBLY suspect (I don’t think it was, but the school decided not to risk it). Jamar Chaney was given his full release and went on to be All-SEC LB at Mississippi State.
I just wanted to make you aware that some SEC schools have done the same type of thing with very good players (proven on the college level at this point) in the past.
June 8th, 2010 - 12:38
Georgia doesn’t oversigning and they really operate above board in a lot of areas. Thanks for the feedback!
June 8th, 2010 - 14:46
@Joshua
Thanks for posting this one. It is very relevant. This is a tough one. But the article hit on a few points that speak to the signing process.
“It’s also interesting what James said about Dorsey’s past possibly affecting his admission to Michigan. Shouldn’t that have been reviewed by all parties before Dorsey signed? Dorsey has had no known incidents for quite some time.”-ESPN Article…
Rod should have known this kid wouldn’t get into Michigan before getting his hopes up and signing him. Dorsey should be armed with this information as well. He shouldn’t depend on the athletic dept…
Don’t sign them until they have qualified! Not NCAA qualified…qualified to get into the school of choice…
June 8th, 2010 - 18:58
Why is Dorsey going to a JUCO? Its seems to me, if he passes NCAA requirements and UM won’t let him in he should be able to re-sign a LOI wherever he wants. Is the Michigan LOI still binding for some reason?
June 8th, 2010 - 22:12
I was wondering the same thing.
If he’s locked out of the FBS because of this, I call bullspit.
June 8th, 2010 - 22:54
The question will be how many schools are out there he would qualify for and of those schools who has room under the 85 at this point, and if they have room under 85 whAt about at that position. This is very similar to a team signing a borderLine kid, that they don’t have room for just to keep him away from another school. At this point in the game, with everyone else full or in some places already over and looking to shed to get to 85, he doesn’t have a lot of options.
June 9th, 2010 - 09:05
This is a very good question..New non-qualifier at Florida is going to Marshall so I don’t believe he is being forced to go JUCO. Joshua hit it on the head. Most schools have signed or “Over” signed their allotment of players for the year. He would probably be better off accepting a gray-shirt somewhere and just going to school in the fall. I don’t know who is advising this kid…
Link to Florida non-qualifier…
http://bleacherreport.com/tb/b4taS
June 9th, 2010 - 10:52
Good find Mario, makes you wonder if some of these cases are related to a school signing a guy just to keep him away from other schools. Interesting how most of the time these guys go out of conference or even out of the region.
June 13th, 2010 - 23:31
No it’s not. Michigan sent back his LOI according to Dorsey.
The problem with Dorsey wasn’t his criminal past. It was due to him becoming qualified due to his admissions to a alternative school. He still went to his normal school but replaced his failed HS classes with an alternative program. U of M must have felt the new school wasn’t academically legit and some have questioned his score jump.
I applaud Michigan for taking the high road and not just taking a player because he can play football unlike many (but not all) SEC teams do and OSU (Clarett and Katzenmoyer). I’m just waiting for Dorsey to sign with FSU or Mississippi State or LSU or Oklahoma St or some other team that doesn’t give a damn about academics.
June 9th, 2010 - 01:27
If Michigan doesn’t want to play at the highest level, that is its choice.
The bigger issue that you need to investigate, however, is Michigan allowing RichRod to tell Dorsey that NCAA eligibility would be enough to get into Michigan and then flipping the script on the kid.
2. Are academic requirements really different across conferences and is it true that just because a guy clears the NCAA doesn’t mean he will get into school?
Yes. It is well known that the kids who can’t get into FSU, UF, Miami, and Bama end up at USF and WVU. Look at Ivaan McCartney from last season’s class, who ended up at WVU despite being the best receiver in Florida (arguably), due to grades. And NFL draft choice Jason Pierre-Paul from the previous year (tried to commit to FSU, but FSU said your academics are not up to snuff). USF took him no problem.
June 13th, 2010 - 23:34
First off, are you suggesting a college that values academics should disregard their values because this kid can play ball? Michigan is bigger than 1 kid but 1 kid can ruin a reputation of a school!
Secondly, Michigan offered to Dorsey not knowing if he’d get in or not. He accepted and was retaking all his tests and still had a full semester of school left! His HS career wasn’t done, not offering him because of poor scores early would be far worse. What if the kid did turn his scores around?
I think Dorsey “qualified” but he didn’t qualify ala Derrick Rose.
June 9th, 2010 - 14:50
I think that both of these issues — the Dorsey situation and Alabama’s — could be solved with the same NCAA rule change: Schools must show they have an offer to give before accepting a Letter of Intent.
What happened to Dorsey is about the hubris of the U-M admissions department, which along with Notre Dame make up the two major football schools who still hold to a higher standard than that enforced by NCAA or conference (Stanford, Duke and Northwestern are the other schools that do this regularly). But it could have been avoided had the admissions department been forced by NCAA rule to sign off that if the player met identifiable qualifications he gets in — and this is the key part — BEFORE the letter of intent is signed.
Alabama too would be taken care of. On signing day, if the school can’t show that it has enough scholarships available, it cannot offer another.
Effectively, this would make schools want to get their top recruits signed early, and hold off on signing the backup guys. This in turn lets those backup guys know exactly where they stand with that school, and keep their options open if a spot isn’t available on signing day. Furthermore, it doesn’t penalize teams like Alabama for attracting more recruits because it’s an attractive place to play — as it becomes commonplace for the top destinations to hold off on signing backup plans, Bama still gets to sieve through top talents like they do now, the only difference being it happens before the recruits are enrolled and subject to transfer rules.
June 13th, 2010 - 23:37
So Michigan should know that in four months he won’t qualify when they offer?
This makes zero sense.
How did Michigan mess up here? They saw a kid they liked and offered him. He accepted there offer and then tried all spring to qualify. When he didn’t Michigan released him from his LOI letting him go to another D1 school. Michigan recruited the kid but then they didn’t lower the bar to let him in and they didn’t push him trough or turn there heads at questionable grades. Then they let the kid know the situation and told him he could go somewhere else without any problems (like sitting out 1 year). I think both Michigan and Dorsey did the best they could given the situation.
June 9th, 2010 - 23:12
Update on LSU’s oversigning.
They just had a LB transfer…
http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpp/sports/ncaa_football/100609-lsu-lb-prater-is-transfererring-to-rice
They are now down to 90 players on ‘ship, still 5 over the limit.
June 10th, 2010 - 11:37
Oversigning and academic standards are so strongly correlated that they might as well go hand in hand.
Compare the USN&WR university rankings with your list of total football signees from 2002-2010:
1. Among the top 12 oversigning schools, the best academic ranking is #88 (tie, ISU and Auburn). The majority are tier-3 (below #128).
2. 11 of the bottom 12 oversigning schools are in the top 50 academically (the 12th is tOSU, still a good academic school).
3. All but one of the top 14 academic schools in the BCS+ND are in the bottom 18 in oversigning. (The exception? Butch Davis’s UNC Tarheels who are the #14 oversigning school, and probably climbing).
4. The 2 least-oversigning schools, Stanford and Northwestern, are two of the top three schools in the BCS academically and they are widely reputed to have the highest football academic standards of all BCS schools.
5. The least-oversigning public school, Georgia Tech, has by far the highest football admissions standards of all public BCS schools (see http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/stories//2008/12/28/acadmain_1228_3DOT.html ).
June 10th, 2010 - 11:41
Great stuff Tre! Thanks for posting!
June 10th, 2010 - 13:42
Good Stuff Tre!
June 13th, 2010 - 23:40
GA Tech doesn’t have the highest football admissions. Sorry. Compared to the rest of the south, sure, and they should be commended, but schools like Penn State are sure to be higher.
Maybe the link says otherwise but it’s not working.