1. 

   SoccerMike
   June 14th, 2010 - 13:31

   Since I have been reading this site I decided that I wanted to do my own research to look at what has actually transpired with the roster at UA since Saban’s arrival. This site actually made me curious about the players who have signed LOIs. So I have been collecting data using all three recruiting services,(ESPN,Rivals,Scout) to look at every player that has signed a LOI and was on a team since Saban arrived. Again I am only using the numbers availble based on who actually signed a LOI which means if a walk-on received one they are not included especially since most of that info is not available.

   What I do know is that the roster was in very bad shape coming into the spring of 2007. In 2006 including players from the 2002 roster class, which would be 5th year seniors that UA and Shula opened the 2006 fall season with only 78 players on scholarships. Some had to do with past NCAA sanctions but also players not coming in. 2 players in the 2006 class did not qualify, Ford who just got removed from USF’s team for academic reasons and Udell. Another( Hutchins) dropped out of HS and did not qualify at all. So out of 23 LOIs signed for 2006 only 20 made it on campus.

   The 2006 fall roster had 13 players graduating and not returning so puting 65 players returning on scholarship. Cole Harvey quit and did not return and B Walton got hurt and went on medical hardship and did graduate, both happened before Saban arrived in Jan of 2007. Once Saban arrived he had 63 players on scholarship. Now according to all three services UA only had 23 or 24 players sign LOIs unlike this site you report 25. The reason is this site lists Elliot McGaskin who only Rivals shows ever being offered but even on their site they do not him signing a LOI. I am not sure where the 25 is coming from or info showing he actually signed a LOI. Rivals also shows that Ricks signed a LOI but he was a JUCO who signed before Saban arrived and never qualified and did not set foot on campus in Jan. So his LOI was already voided prior to Saban arriving, which is why Scout and ESPN do not show him signing one. ESPN and Scout only show UA having 23 players signing LOIs.

   Now when Saban arrived in Jan 2007 he had a recruiting budget of 22 with 63 scholarship players returning. One LOI was already signed when he arrived, Jamar Taylor who once Saban arrived transferred out that same spring, as to why that can be debated, who by the way also just left the USF because of academics. That would leave Saban with 21 scholarships to be offered via LOIs including the one Taylor already signed. Saban sent out and received 22 LOIs putting him over the by 1 for the class. Did he oversign yes was it justified that is debatable because everyone knew that Jimmy Barnes QB was unhappy not to see the field in the fall and had already talked about transferring before Saban arrived. Google his name and you will see reports about it, but Saban got him to stay through the spring but in the end he did transfer. So Saban hedged his bet on one spot that worked out for him. Also A Davis who redshirted the 2006 season transferred out to Samford. Kerry Murphy did not qualify either that year to get in.

   So Saban who had 63 returning scholarship players had 2 transfer out leaving him with 61 returning and only 21 coming in. UA started the 2007 fall season with 82 scholarship players that had signed previous LOIs. Now I am not saying that Saban is a saint but in that year the numbers did not work out for him and even with his oversigning of one player he still did not retain a full roster. Many on here have specualted that Saban oversigns to keep the best 85 players he can and that if he couldn’t oversign he would not allow players to transfer so not to go under 85. This shows even with oversigning of just 1 player this year he still had attrtion that put him under the 85 max. The 3 that transferred out, if stayed would have kept him at 85 not over. So he did not even need any player to transfer and could have kept them on the roster. I can also tell you that UA started the 2008 season under the 85.

   Now I am also doing this for every year but with more attrition the next years it gets a little harder. I will post all the info as I get it and am creating a spreadsheet with the info. I am not doing this to justify but to deomonstarte why one school might be doing it and maybe in the future compare it to a school like KState who uses so many JUCOs. I think to truly address any issue one must look at all the reasons for it taking place. If those issues can be addressed a way to monitor and manage might be better founded. Again I am using UA because og my interest in them as a fan and would like to know how, not to say they are not doing it.

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   • 

     deepsthboy
     June 14th, 2010 - 14:35

     Mike, this was a lot of work, and it’s commendable that you have put in the time to do it.

     What I will be interested to see is whether or not any of this actually matters as it relates to the website. Just reading this piece on medical hardships is troubling. I think that Josh is trying somewhat to report his findings with “reasonableness”, he nevertheless is casting a suspicious eye on something and calling it confusing, when it isn’t suspicious or confusing at all.

     For a football player to qualify for a medical redshirt during a current, they have to have competed in at least one, but no more than three, games. If they are deemed to be unable to play beyond that, they can apply for a medical redshirt. If they are deemed to be unable to play, for medical reasons, for an entire season, then they can apply to have the entire season as a redshirt (not counting against the NCAA number). The school must get a doctor and the athlete (along with someone from the SID office) to sign a form stating that the injury makes them unable to compete and it is done. Not confusing at all.

     The notion that there needs to be some form of “testing” beyond that makes no sense. The existing hurdles were put in place to provide that very “test”. Why would there need to be more? Because some fan of some other school felt like something fishy was happening? Do we think some accredited physician is going to risk his practice over something like THIS? Of course not! Why in the world would a doctor LIE about some kid’s injuries to try and falsify a record to enable some shenanigans? Short answer–they wouldn’t. The NCAA has these safeguards in place, and they WORK.

     Alabama has been the poster child for this whole shooting match, and the shouting from the rooftops is going on and on, but no one has yet to provide anything credible to suggest that anything is going on in Tuscaloosa that merits anything like this sort of harassment. In fact, I would go so far as to say that not one credible shred of evidence exists that there is anything going on at all that makes any of this exercise worthwhile.

     Senator Joseph McCarthy attained a high level of infamy in the 50s for conducting Senate investigations into the supposed Communist activities of some very high profile people and used absurd tactics to try and prove that innocent people were guilty of something that they weren’t. He was ultimately censured by the Senate and widely and publicly decried for his subversive and fraudulent activities. To this day the word McCarthyism is used, as Wikipedia defines it:

     “to describe demagogic, reckless, and unsubstantiated accusations, as well as public attacks on the character or patriotism of political opponents”.

     Again, Mike, it seems to me you have shown in clear numbers exactly what has, at least in part, gone on with the football numbers at UA since Saban arrived. It will be interesting to see where the site goes with this topic now, particularly given its inability to establish one instance in which something occurred that was not completely above board.

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     • 

       Joshua
       June 14th, 2010 - 20:37

       dsb, we’re not the only one looking at Alabama…we never said they violated any laws or NCAA rules, in fact, we have gone to great lengths to show that oversigning is, at the present moment, legal. Our position is that it is a loophole in the NCAA by-laws for recruiting and signing players and we believe it needs to be closed. Alabama presents a unique example of this practice as evidenced by the numbers over the years – numbers that we are not generating out of thin air, numbers that have come from places such as this Alabama website that points out that Alabama is way over the limit.

       Any way you slice it there have been 7 players relieve from football scholarships since the recruiting class was signed in February and Alabama still has a few to go to get to 85 and avoid NCAA rules violations.

       http://www.bamasportsreport.com/2010-articles/march/scholarship-numbers-march-26-2010.html

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       • 

         deepsthboy
         June 14th, 2010 - 21:17

         There is no “loophole”, Josh. The number is 85. If Alabama gets to August 1st and they have more than 85 players on scholarship and the NCAA allows that to go forward, then THAT represents a loophole. If I have a savings account set up for when I have an unexpected repair, is that a “loophole”? Should someone audit me to make sure that I just live off of my paycheck alone? It wouldn’t be fair to people who don’t make enough money to save for such an expense, so perhaps the federal government should penalize me for trying to cushion myself against an unexpected occurrence–sort of like signing extra players in case the some of the existing ones aren’t able to play. Like that.

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         • 

           Joshua
           June 14th, 2010 - 22:17

           Loophole as defined by Webster Dictionary – “an ambiguity or omission in the text through which the intent of a statute, contract, or obligation may be evaded.”

           Loophole as described on Wikipedia – “A loophole in a law often contravenes the intent of the law without technically breaking it. For example, in some places, one may avoid paying taxes to the jurisdiction by forming a second residence in another location, or a commercial property can be built in a residential zone if it is made also for residential use.”

           If the rule is 85 and Alabama finds a way to have more than 85 then all they did was break a rule, which is different than finding a loophole. And furthermore, if the NCAA allows them to have more than 85 then they haven’t done anything wrong. But of course that is not what we are talking about here.

           Signing more players than you have room for, simply because the rules don’t say you can’t sign more than you have room for, and then relying on attrition to get within legal limits is the definition of exploiting a loophole.

           I see you are back to running around in a circle like a crazed dog chasing his tail. Which argument is it this week, “oversigning doesn’t exist” or “Alabama doesn’t oversign?”

           I will give you one thing dsb, you are one tough cracker to have stood in here this long and fight this topic. Every time I respond to you I question my own sanity.

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           • 

             deepsthboy
             June 15th, 2010 - 09:50

             Josh, here is the language from the NCAA bylaws:

             15.5.6.1 Bowl Subdivision Football. [FBS] There shall be an annual limit of 25 on the number of initial
             counters (per Bylaw 15.02.3.1) and an annual limit of 85 on the total number of counters (including initial
             counters) in football at each institution. (Revised: 1/10/91 effective 8/1/92, 12/15/06)

             There is NOTHING in that language about intent. There is nothing that is IMPLIED. It simply states that the total number of “counters” is 85. Nothing to interpret. If a school has 85 total counters on the day they are supposed to have them, then they are within the rule. The literal rule, the spirit of the rule, whatever the heck you want to call it. End of story.

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             • 

               Joshua
               June 15th, 2010 - 10:46

               Those are by-laws, why would there be anything in there other than the stated rules. Why is it so hard for you to accept the fact oversigning exists and people are abusing it? Is it just that like to argue with people? It would different if this was the only place on earth that was mentioning oversigning. It would be different if conferences didn’t have extra rules and guidelines in place to prevent it. It would be different if there wasn’t historical references to the practice of oversigning that led to GT leaving the SEC.

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               • 

                 deepsthboy
                 June 15th, 2010 - 15:17

                 Laws and by-laws are written as they are written for a reason. If they were “intended” to be something else, then the law or by-law would be amended to mean something more clear. If your goal is to have the by-laws amended, then that’s fine. But right now, the way the rule/by-law is written is abundantly clear and isn’t subject to interpretation or inference or anything else. I have never said oversigning doesn’t exist, but it’s only relevant if it then follows that someone is using it to break rules. The rule is clear, and until you can show someone is breaking the rule as written, then what are you even doing other than to say you don’t like the way the rule is written?

                 If that’s your goal, you have done it about 1,000 times. You can retire now. The last time the language was even slightly amended appears to be December 2006, so you haven’t gotten through to the NCAA yet. If you would like for me to cut and paste the individual dates on when players do and do not “count” against the numbers, I can do that as well. I believe we will find that those rules/by-laws are being complied with as well.

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                 • 

                   Joshua
                   June 15th, 2010 - 18:16

                   We have made it clear that we will continue with this effort until the NCAA re-writes the recruiting by laws to prohibit oversigning explictly. No matter what it takes. It is just going to take more effort and more time.

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                   • 

                     DP
                     June 19th, 2010 - 11:24

                     Here’s an article on the integrity of Ohio State coach Jim Tressel. His program at Youngstown State was cited by the NCAA for a lack of institutional control. Tressel’s strategy appears to have been to maintain plausible deniability.

                     http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=1920867

                     “Youngstown State’s internal investigation was a sham. So little diligence went into pursuit of truth that Malmisur never confronted Monus with the allegations, nor apparently did Tressel contact Isaac, as Cochran said he had instructed them to do. Tressel, in a December 2003 interview, declined comment to ESPN.com on most aspects of the case but said he can’t remember if he discussed the Monus allegations with his former player. Isaac is more definitive: “I didn’t talk to nobody.”

                     Later that year, Isaac called Tressel. At the time, Isaac was under investigation by the FBI for tampering with the lone juror who had refused to convict Monus in his first corporate fraud trial. Facing 17 years in prison unless he squealed on Monus, his sugar daddy, Isaac wanted Tressel’s advice.

                     “This is what I know … ” Isaac told Tressel.

                     His mentor, as Isaac describes Tressel, cut him off before details flowed.

                     “I don’t want to know what you know,” Tressel said. “Just tell them the truth.”

                     Isaac would confess to trying to bribe the juror. The U.S. justice system would be served. But the wheels of NCAA justice would wait four more years to begin turning again. They would start grinding on March 4, 1998, when Monus was on trial for jury tampering. Cochran said only then, when made aware of a local television report on Isaac’s court testimony that day, did he realize that NCAA rules had been broken years earlier.

                     Now retired, Cochran looks back on the 1994 non-investigation by his athletic director and coach with embarrassment. “I feel like I got crapped on,” he said.

                     Youngstown State would admit to a lack of institutional control and accept minor scholarship cuts. But avoiding the truth for so long served the team and city well. With the NCAA’s statute of limitations on violations having expired in 1996 — five years after Isaac left college — the NCAA declined to strip Youngstown State of its beloved ’91 national championship

                     Eleven months after the NCAA issued its decision, with no reprimand for Tressel at Youngstown, Ohio State athletic director Andy Geiger hired Tressel as the Buckeyes’ new head coach.

                     Three days after that, Clarett, the nation’s top high school running back, orally committed to Ohio State. Jim Tressel was a driving reason.”

                     Josh looks the other way on institutional corruption at Youngstown State and THE Ohio State University under Coach Sweatervest, but By God he will pursue the abuse of medical scholarships!!!!
                   • 

                     Dr. Gonzo
                     July 6th, 2010 - 23:53

                     LOL at you bringing up this article as an indictment of Tressel.

                     (1) You left out an important quote from the article, “Jim Tressel did not know about the payments.”

                     (2) The article is from 7 years ago and tries to parallel Isaac and Mo Clarett. Only, OSU and JT suspended Clarett when they became aware of his infractions- significantly before his public insanity.

                     Moreover, after the Clarett saga the NCAA gave the entire OSU athletic department an enema; most of all the football program and JT. THE NCAA FOUND ZERO IMPROPRIETIES WITHIN THE FOOTBALL PROGRAM!

                     Compare JT and OSU to Alabama’s wrap sheet, I think you will see OSU and JT compare pretty favorably, lol.

                     (3) Your obfuscation of the issue aside, can you please explain how Alabama oversigns a statistically significant percentage of kids every year, yet seems to be the 85 limit by the time of fall camp?

                     (4) Regarding the rules, oversigning is currently within the letter of the law, but certainly not within the spirit.

                     The 85 player scholarship limit (down from 95 in the 1990′s) was created in order to produce conformity and parity throughout college football, in an attempt to promote fairness and uniformity throughout the country.

                     Plainly said, the rule was designed so every team would have the same number of players on a team.

                     However, what Alabama (and other schools have done) is skirt the rule by manipulating the system in order to still meet the mandated 85 limit. Instead of bringing in a maximum of 85 players on scholarship, the schools have brought in new prospects and found a way to marginalize mediocre players (whether by medical waiver, transfers, kicking them out of school).

                     In fact, many Bama blogs and ESPN article speculate on how ‘Bama will get down to 85 by fall camp.

                     This in itself is a violation of the spirit of the rule. This should not even be an issue. If Alabama would have been playing within the spirit of the rule (that most schools do play within) they would not have to find room for newcomers.

                     They would not have to have grey-shirts. They would not have to have guys pay their own way. They would not have to place guys on Bear Bryant scholarships. They would not have to encourage guys to transfer.

                     Sure, attrition happens everywhere. However, forced/manipulated attrition does not happen everywhere and it is a slimy game.

                     Bama (and many of its peers in the SEC), are currently taking advantage of the rules, but with proper attention the NCAA will probably put an end to this policy.

                     It is a HUGE advantage to be able to bring in 13% more players a year. If Alabama conformed to the rules, they would not have their Heisman Trophy runningback on the roster. He was the last recruit in the class and would have ended up at Michigan State. Alabama had already oversigned by a few players when they got Mark Ingram to verbal and eventually sign a LOI. However, because Saban knew he could make room he offered Ingram.

                     After the NCAA takes care of this rule Alabama will eventually find another loophole to exploit (like contacting kids on facebook, Twitter, webcams and e-mail to BlackBerrys- all of which Saban, Kiffin, and Meyer have pioneered).

                     Just another step for college football becoming professional.
   • 

     Joshua
     June 14th, 2010 - 16:29

     Mike, let me save you some time…here is a break down from an Alabama site that shows how Alabama is over the limit…this is the most detailed account you will find, it was done by a writer for an alabama blog, and we are completely in line with this site. Search all you want but you will not find where we have grossly overstated the degree with which Alabama has oversigned.

     http://www.bamasportsreport.com/2010-articles/march/scholarship-numbers-march-26-2010.html

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     • 

       SoccerMike
       June 14th, 2010 - 19:34

       I have seen that site for the upcoming year but I am trying to find the trends prior to that, that got UA there. I want to see exactly how and why without specualtion. Again just curious. Also as compared to other schools that had players leave or transfer like at OSU in 2007 DB Brandon Underwood – Released from scholarship. DE Walter Dublin -Transferred. DT Juan Garnier – Left team. DE Ryan Williams – Transferred. I understand that OSU was not oversigning that year and I am not trying to make this a debate between the teams, but just looking at why teams that oversign and relation to attrition. Also what those reasons are for attrition.

       See as we stated before if the reasons are determined than maybe those loopholes if any can be closed. If a certian trend is causing oversigning then address it. Either way oversigning will stop if the opportunity for it has been addressed.

       Still curious though where you got 25 signed LOIs for the 2007 class. Again Rivals 24, Scout 23, and ESPN 23 report less. I know 1 doesn’t make or break but we are basing all this on numbers.

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       • 

         Joshua
         June 14th, 2010 - 20:12

         Here is more on Elliot McGaskin the Alabama commitment that represents #25 in the 2007 class.

         He went to JUCO with the expectation of coming back to Alabama, but was never given a second offer. Technically, he did not sign a letter of intent. And to be honest, this is something that might have slipped through the cracks on my end. At the time the numbers were compiled from the Rivals site there was no distinction between committed and signed – it is generally assumed that once the class is final, Rivals will go back and update the list of players and remove guys that are completely out of the picture and only leave players that where either signed or who were offered a grey shirt for the following year. Being that the letter of intent is not a guarantee to a scholarship, it’s really splitting hairs because a grey shirt offer is not a guarantee either. It was just recently, like within the last couple of weeks that they created a distinction between signed and committed.

         Just so you know (and we have posted this on the site numerous times) the numbers we have used came from rivals.com around the end of February, 2010. All schools are complied the same way, so it’s not like we are cherry picking and only counting grey-shirt guys from Alabama and no where else. The same is true for guys that are listed in back to back years…they count twice for everyone, not just Alabama.

         Here are the links on McGaskin:

         http://www.tidefans.com/forums/recruiting/79461-elliot-mcgaskin-will-we-recruit-him-again.html
         http://www.tidefans.com/forums/recruiting/47581-elliott-mcgaskin-accepts-greyshirt-offer-commits-bama.html
         http://recruiting.scout.com/a.z?s=73&p=2&c=808952&ssf=1&RequestedURL=http%3a%2f%2frecruiting.scout.com%2f2%2f808952.html

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         • 

           Joshua
           June 14th, 2010 - 20:20

           FWIW, Mike, Rivals has Alabama listed for 27 signed in 2009, which is what we have listed in our charts, but their total commitment list for that year is 28.

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         • 

           deepsthboy
           June 14th, 2010 - 21:11

           Josh, no Bama fan cares how you count the other teams’ guys. If you are counting our guys twice or three times and at the same time using us as your poster child for all that is wrong with recruiting, then it is pertinent that you are doing it erroneously. Claiming that you are using the same methodology for anyone else hardly matters.

           It’s obvious that you employ this approach for shock value and to make the numbers look as inflated as you can. All this does is accentuate the overstatement of something that you know is fallacious.

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           • 

             Joshua
             June 14th, 2010 - 22:24

             Not trying to look to inflate the numbers…we have said that from the beginning. Each time a guy signs a letter of intent it should count. Think of it this way, if a school has signed the max that they have room for and have all of their scholarships filled, is the NCAA going to allow them to give out another scholarship to a guy just because he signed a letter of intent the year before? No. So if a team is at 85 scholarships they are not going to be able to go to 86 just because the guy signed a letter of intent the year before. What matters is the number of letters, not the names on the letters. And as we said, we will always count them the same way. Every year is a fresh start.

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2. 

   Wallacewade04
   June 14th, 2010 - 14:14

   “Had Alabama signed 19 instead of 29 and then suffered the same amount of attrition, they would be going into the season with 78 players, which is roughly the number with which Auburn went into last season.”

   I respect your site and understand the argument. This is not an attack on any of the ideals your put forth.

   But, man, if you’re an Auburn fan (and that little blurb about the players the Barn had going into last season sounds a lot like a whiny Barn fan) then your credibility as a person who is just in this for the “purity of teh game!” just took a hit

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3. 

   Jack
   June 14th, 2010 - 16:08

   A few comments on your attrition chart.
   1. I am not sure who “Moore” is in the 2009 list. Brandon Moore is the only “Moore” I remember in recent years, and he has had no grade issues, and is still with the team.
   2. In 2008, I am not sure who Billingsley is. The only Billingsley from recent years is Undra Billingsley, who was the valedictorian of his high school class. He is currently competing at defensive end and has never had any grade issues of any kind.
   3. In 2008, Wes Neighbors shouldn’t be listed in the attrition list. He was signed as a Bryant Scholarship recipient, which is given to non-recruited athletes whose immediate relative played for Bear Bryant. They cannot play in a game for their first three years on campus. He is still with the team.

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   • 

     Joshua
     June 14th, 2010 - 16:38

     You are inaccurate in your description of the Bryant scholarship, but we can get into that later. The attrition list is for those who are no longer on Football scholarship and those who were signed to a Bryant scholarship; the Bryant scholarship is included because if not for the Bryant scholarship these guys would count toward the 85 limit.

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     • 

       deepsthboy
       June 14th, 2010 - 18:01

       Neighbors was moved from a Bryant to a regular football schollie, although I have no link that is not from a forum or blog to back that up.

       The NCAA will NEVER do away with the Bryant Scholarship. Anyone who thinks otherwise is baying at the moon. Best to stay focused on the legal practice of oversigning, which the NCAA also allows.

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       • 

         Joshua
         June 14th, 2010 - 18:50

         The only thing I am going to say about the Bryant Scholarship is that it is one of the best things he ever did for the University and the spirit of the scholarship is what made him such a great man, but the fact remains that the Bryant Scholarship is the only one of its kind and future attempts to create similar scholarship programs were later banned by the NCAA. We’re not going to lobby that the NCAA do something about the Bryant Scholarship program; we’re just going to make a note that it is the only scholarship of its kind and there is no question that it has an affect on the football team.

         It certainly is unique.

         The late Charlie McClendon, a former Louisiana State coach who played for Bryant at Kentucky, established a similar scholarship endowment at LSU to benefit his former players.

         Such programs, however, were later banned by the NCAA, which calls them an “extra benefit” and a recruiting inducement.

         Still, the grandfathered Bryant Scholarship lives on.

         Moore calls it “one of the greatest things he ever did.”

         http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jan/04/sports/la-sp-crowe4-2010jan04/2

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4. 

   Bob
   June 14th, 2010 - 18:48

   Neighbors was given the Bryant Scholarship after his freshman year on scholarship. He was indeed recruited and signed. Doesn’t really fit with the non-recruited description.

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   • 

     Joshua
     June 14th, 2010 - 19:05

     Exactly, he was moved from a football scholarship to a Bryant scholarship to free up room, and that is why he is on the attrition list. Thank you, Bob.

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     • 

       deepsthboy
       June 14th, 2010 - 19:50

       Not accurate. Yes, he was “recruited” (and by a couple of other schools as well), but he was not moved from a “regular” schollie to a Bryant. He was originally a Bryant and is now being moved to a “regular”. Better add him to your number.

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       • 

         Tre
         June 15th, 2010 - 09:12

         dont argue facts the way they are, argue them the way you want them perceived, at least if you are on this site. And dont argue with Joshua, he knows way more about Alabama than anyone else here. Doesnt matter that he is wrong, he knows more.

         And no Josh, he was originally a Bryant scholarship recipient, but earned the respect of the coaches and was moved to a full time football scholarship. Do a bit of research before posting that non-sense.

         And Bob, if i remember correctly, he was recruited by other schools, but not by Bama. And he didnt receive the Bryant scholarship “after” his freshman year, he started on it.

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5. 

   Everett in DC
   June 14th, 2010 - 22:13

   Here are the players that I could find on the 2009 roster, that somehow fell off the roster. Hope if helps.

   Devonta Bolton WR/SS Fr 6-4/220 Norcross, GA
   Nick Fanuzzi QB So* HS 6-3/201 San Antonio, TX (Churchill HS)
   Patrick Crump OL So* HS 6-3/267 Hoover, AL (Hoover)
   Sam Burnthall FS Sr 1V 6-2/184 Decatur, AL (Decatur)
   Tarence Farmer CB So* HS 6-0/195 Houston, TX (St Pius X)
   Alonzo Lawrence CB Fr* RS 6-1/190 Lucedale, MS (George County)
   Prince Hall ILB Sr 3L 5-11/235 Moreno Valley, Calif. (Moreno Valley)
   Chris Jackson WR So 1L 6-1/190 McDonough, Ga. (Henry County)
   Ivan Matchett TB Fr* RS 5-10/215 Mobile (St. Paul’s)
   Jermaine Preyear TB Fr HS 5-11/205 Mobile, Ala. (Davidson)
   Corey Smith K So SQ 6-0/195 Bunker Hill, W.V. (Musselman)
   Brandon Fanney OLB Sr 2L 6-4/257 Morristown, Tenn. (Hargrave Military)
   Evan Cardwell OL Sr 3L 6-2/279 Killen, Ala. (Brooks)
   Charlie Higgenbotham ILB Jr* 2L 6-0/218 Birmingham, Ala. (Mountain Brook)
   Charlie Kirschman OLB Jr* SQ 6-3/230 St. Augustine, Fla. (Nease)
   Jennings Hester ILB So* SQ 6-3/219 Atlanta, Ga. (Marist School)
   Anthony Orr DE Fr 6-4/260 Harvest, AL
   Petey Smith LB Fr 6-0/230 Seffner, FL
   Quinton Dial DT Fr 6-5/308 Pinson, AL
   Darius McKeller OL Fr 6-6/280 Jonesboro, GA

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   • 

     Joshua
     June 14th, 2010 - 22:32

     http://blog.al.com/bamabeat/2008/08/db_sam_burnthall_leaves_alabam.html

     *****Reserve safety Sam Burnthall, a junior defensive back from Decatur, has left the team. The junior played in three games in 2007 and did not record a statistic.

     “Sam Burnthall has left the team for personal reasons,” Saban said in a release. “We have granted him his release and we wish him the best.”

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   • 

     Joshua
     June 14th, 2010 - 22:35

     http://blog.al.com/rapsheet/2009/05/prince_hall_is_leaving_alabama.html

     “Prince Hall has decided to transfer to Central Washington for his senior season,” Saban said Friday. “We wish him the best of luck as he finishes his collegiate career.”

     “I would like to thank the University of Alabama, Coach Saban and the staff for helping me during my career,” Hall said in a statement Friday. “I think it will be a great opportunity to finish my last year of college at Central Washington, and I am looking forward to it.”

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   • 

     Joshua
     June 14th, 2010 - 22:38

     http://blog.al.com/rapsheet/2009/07/alabama_lb_brandon_fanney_has.html

     A starter at Jack linebacker in 2008, Fanney was third on the team with 66 tackles — nine for a loss — but just one sack. He was not available for comment.

     The news may not be surprising, considering Fanney was suspended along with recently departed Prince Hall during the beginning of spring practice.

     Fanney later returned, though Nick Saban had said he hoped to receive increased production from the Jack linebacker spot. With Fanney’s departure, look for sophomore Courtney Upshaw to fight to fill his shoes, unless Dont’a Hightower can take over as the full-time Jack.

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   • 

     Joshua
     June 14th, 2010 - 22:44

     http://blog.al.com/bamabeat/2009/07/ol_evan_cardwell_not_expected.html

     Alabama senior center Evan Cardwell is not expected back with the Crimson Tide’s football team this season, the Press-Register has learned.

     Cardwell started seven games for Alabama in 2007.Cardwell has dealt with a recurring back injury during much of his collegiate career, though it’s not clear if he will go on medical scholarship. He has already obtained his undergraduate degree from UA and is currently enrolled in graduate school with a sports management specialty.

     Share A product of Brooks High School in Killen, Cardwell played in 26 career games for Alabama. That included seven starts at center when injuries and suspensions hit the offensive line during the latter half of the 2007 season.

     Cardwell won’t be the only departure as Alabama seeks to hit a target number of 85 scholarships in the fall. Senior linebacker Prince Hall transferred to Central Washington. Sophomore linebacker Jennings Hester is taking a medical scholarship for “chronic hamstring problems,” according to his high school coach.

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   • 

     Joshua
     June 14th, 2010 - 22:47

     http://blog.al.com/bamabeat/2009/07/charlie_higgenbotham_played_in.html

     Junior linebacker Charlie Higgenbotham finalized plans today to transfer from the University of Alabama to the new program at South Alabama for the 2009 season, a source tells the Press-Register.

     Charlie Higgenbotham played in 24 games for Alabama this past two seasons, totalling 16 tackles.Higgenbotham was set to meet today with Crimson Tide coaches regarding his future. He will be eligible to play immediately for the Jaguars, who will play the program’s inaugural game Sept. 5 against Hargrave Military Academy.

     He explored other schools before settling on South Alabama’s team, which is coached by former Crimson Tide player Joey Jones. Higgenbotham played for Jones during his prep career at Mountain Brook High School near Birmingham.

     A two-time SEC academic honor roll selection, Higgenbotham played in 24 career games for Alabama, mostly on special teams and in a reserve defensive role. He now becomes the latest in a growing line of attrition for Alabama’s football team this summer.

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   • 

     Joshua
     June 14th, 2010 - 22:49

     http://blog.al.com/bamabeat/2009/07/tracking_the_attrition_for_cri.html

     We’ve officially entered the annual season of attrition for Alabama’s football program.

     KirschmanSoon after yesterday’s report that Alabama center Evan Cardwell is not expected back next season, BamaOnline.com has confirmed that junior linebacker Charlie Kirschman will also not be back for the 2009 season.

     Neither departure was a surprise. Cardwell has long dealt with a recurring back injury and is currently in graduate school, while Kirschman earned his undergraduate degree in May, and sources had previously indicated he was considering the move away from football. A signee from St. Augustine, Fla., Kirschman played in two career games, both during the 2008 season.

     Alabama coach Nick Saban has not confirmed the departures of Cardwell, Kirschman or Jennings Hester, who opted to take a medical scholarship.

     For a second consecutive year, Alabama is seeking to get under the 85-man scholarship limit before fall camp begins. An appoximate total of 70 current players are still thought to be on scholarship, meaning more attrition news is expected in the coming weeks.

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     • 

       Joshua
       June 14th, 2010 - 23:36

       Note that the article says this was the second straight year of attrition for Alabama to get under 85…but that was in 2009, therefore with 7 guys gone thus far this year it makes 3 years in a row.

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   • 

     Joshua
     June 14th, 2010 - 22:53

     http://blog.al.com/bamabeat/2009/05/ua_linebacker_jennings_hester.html

     Alabama sophomore linebacker Jennings Hester plans to go on medical scholarship, thus ending his playing career with the Crimson Tide’s football team.

     Hester’s high school coach Alan Chadwick confirmed the news to the Press-Register this morning. Having spoken with Hester’s family, Chadwick said the departure is tied to “chronic hamstring problems” that dated back to Hester’s prep career at Atlanta’s Marist School.

     “He tried to go through it and push through it, and he has not gotten any better,” Chadwick said. “It’s kind of chronic situation that keeps occurring. It kind of puts him in a precarious situation. If you can’t perform as well as you like, you’re setting yourself up to get hurt even worse.”

     Hester can now stay on scholarship and not count toward Alabama’s 85-man team total so long as he does not play. Chadwick said Hester probably will remain in school at UA to finish his degree.

     Hester departs Alabama’s team having never played in a game. After signing as a member of Nick Saban’s first UA recruiting class, he redshirted in 2007 and did not play in 2008.

     During that time, he missed very little practice time because of injury. Chadwick said Hester recently visited a surgeon in Birmingham and that, “Doctors said he had an unbelievable amount of scar tissue built up in there.”

     “I don’t think he let on to Alabama’s staff how bad he was going through it,” Chadwick said. “That’s his nature is to try to push through stuff and not make a big deal about it and talk a lot about it and just do his job. I think eventually he got to the point where he just couldn’t continue to do that anymore.”

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   • 

     Joshua
     June 14th, 2010 - 22:55

     http://www.rollbamaroll.com/2009/7/22/958675/anthony-orr-will-greyshirt

     In some surprising news, published reports confirm that 2009 Alabama signee Anthony Orr will greyshirt and defer his enrollment at Alabama until January of 2010. Many people in Hoover were wondering exactly what was taking place with Orr when his name was conspicuously absent from the roster of the Alabama media guide, and with the greyshirt being confirmed it now all makes sense.

     This one admittedly does come as a bit of a surprise. Greyshirts have long been considered a possibility for the 2009 class, but Orr has generally not been one of those mentioned as a legitimate greyshirt possibility. Orr was a pretty highly-touted recruit coming out of Sparkman High school, and he was considered by many to be one of the state’s top players. He picked Alabama over offers from Auburn, Tennessee, Clemson, and others, and he was a good student in the classroom so academics were never a real concern. Furthermore, to the best of everyone’s knowledge, Orr has also been healthy, and is not currently recovering from an injury.

     My gut instinct on this one is that Orr — an admitted lifelong diehard follower of Alabama football — probably chose to take one for the team and greyshirt. He was almost certain to redshirt in 2009 regardless, and if this helps us with the 85, then perhaps that is why he deferred his enrollment. Besides, the 2010 class is obviously going to be very thin on defensive linemen, so perhaps delaying the start of his eligibility clock will only help get him further playing time in the future. At any rate, obviously we do not know anything for certain, but that is my best stab at it. Aside from issues regarding the limit of 85, I know of no other reason as to why Orr would greyshirt.

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   • 

     Joshua
     June 14th, 2010 - 22:58

     http://blogs.tampabay.com/preps/2009/08/exhawk-petey-smith-likely-to-grayshirt-for-alabama-in-09.html

     Don’t be shocked if former Armwood all-state linebacker Petey Smith doesn’t suit up for the University of Alabama this fall.

     Fact is, Hawks coach Sean Callahan said, that has been the plan all along.

     Smith was among four members of the Crimson Tide’s incoming freshman class not on the team’s initial 105-man roster when Alabama reported for fall camp Wednesday. Smith is expected to “grayshirt,” meaning he wouldn’t enroll until January so his signing doesn’t count against the current signing class.

     “We have three potential guys…that will be pushed back to January in terms of them starting their college career,” Tide coach Nick Saban said at his pre-camp news conference.

     Callahan, reached Thursday, said Smith’s grayshirt is not academic-related.

     “That was always (the plan) because of (Alabama’s) needs,” Callahan said. “Petey always knew he was going in January from Day One and he was fine with that, but he was up there the whole summer working out.”

     Alabama returned all four of its starting linebackers from 2008, though starter Brandon Fanney wasn’t invited back to the team for a violation of team rules. Five linebackers signed in February, but Smith is the only one of the five expected to grayshirt.

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   • 

     Joshua
     June 14th, 2010 - 23:00

     http://blog.al.com/sentell/2009/04/alabama_2009_recruit_dial_head.html

     Alabama Class of 2009 signee Quinton Dial will not be heading to Tuscaloosa this fall.
     The Clay-Chalkville senior defensive tackle was Crimson Tide all the way. He never entertained any other offers. He was the seventh prospect in his class to give an oral commitment to the Alabama program back in June of 2008.

     But he said Wednesday to look for him to be at East Mississippi Community College this fall.

     It appears the earliest he can join the Alabama team will now be in January of 2011. The 6-foot-5, 290-pound senior said he made the decision “about two weeks ago” to attend the two-year school.

     “I’m going to go to junior college,” Dial said. “I will be there for three semesters. It is frustrating but it is something I have got to do and I am going to do it.”

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   • 

     SoccerMike
     June 14th, 2010 - 23:23

     I am little confused what you mean on the roster. None of these players were on the 2009 fall roster last year for UA. Several just arrived for the first time this spring 2010 and several others never made it on campus because they could not qualify like Bolton.

     Below is the 2009 fall roster:

     82 Earl Alexander WR Jr. 6-4
     32 Eryk Anders LB Sr. 6-2
     28 Javier Arenas DB Sr. 5-9
     49 Jonathan Atchison LB Fr. 6-2
     4 Mark Barron DB So. 6-2
     7 Kenny Bell WR Fr. 6- 1
     44 Alex Benson LB Sr. 6- 1
     86 Undra Billingsley TE Fr. 6-2
     93 Chris Bonds DL Fr. 6-4
     67 John Michael Boswell OL So. 6-5
     88 Michael Bowman WR Fr. 6-4
     87 Drew Bullard LB Jr. 6-3
     77 James Carpenter OL Jr. 6-5
     99 Josh Chapman DL So. 6-1
     62 Terrence Cody DL Sr. 6-5
     57 Marcell Dareus DL So. 6-4
     16 Thomas Darrah QB So. 6-5
     79 Drew Davis OL Sr. 6-7
     96 Luther Davis DL Jr. 6-3
     95 Brandon Deaderick DL Sr. 6-4
     51 Michael DeJohn LB Jr. 6- 1
     85 Preston Dial TE Ir. 6-3
     40 DeMarcus DuBose LB So. 6-1
     13 Rob Ezell WR Jr. 5-10
     97 P.J. Fitzgerald P Sr. 5-11
     76 D.J. Fluker OL Fr. 6-6
     58 Nick Gentry DL So. 6-1
     11 Brandon Gibson WR So. 6-2
     6 Demetrius Goode RB So. 5-9
     29 Terry Grant RB Jr. 5-10
     33 Hampton Gray DB Sr. 6- 2
     23 Robby Green DB So. 6-0
     34 Jeramie Griffin RB So. 6-2
     15 Darius Hanks WR So. 6-0
     54 Glenn Harbin DL Fr. 6-5
     5 Jerrell Harris LB So. 6-3
     30 Dont’a Hightower LB So. 6-4
     40 Baron Huber RB/TE Sr. 6-4
     22 Mark Ingram RB So. 5-10
     3 Kareem Jackson DB Jr. 6-0
     2 Star Jackson QB Fr. 6-3
     24 Marquis Johnson DB Sr. 5-11
     78 Mike Johnson OL Sr. 6-5
     35 Nico Johnson LB Fr. 6-3
     75 Barrett Jones OL R-Fr. 6-4
     8 Julio Jones WR So. 6-4
     26 Phelon Jones DB So. 5-11
     36 Chris Jordan LB So. 6-3
     81 Kendall Kelly WR Fr. 6-3
     20 Tyrone King DB Sr. 5-11
     21 Dre Kirkpatrick DB Fr. 6-3
     42 Eddie Lacy RB Fr. 6-0
     37 Robert Lester DB Fr. 6-2
     72 Tyler Love 0 L R-Fr. 6-6
     33 Mike Marrow RB-HB Fr. 6-2
     4 Marquis Maze WR So. 5-10
     10 A.J. McCarron QB Fr. 6-4
     25 Rolando McClain LB Ir. 6-4
     80 Mike McCoy WR Sr. 6-3
     52 Alfred McCullough OL So. 6-2
     12 Greg McElroy QB Jr. 6-3
     56 William Ming DL Fr. 6-3
     59 Brandon Moore DL Fr. 6-5
     66 Brian Motley OL Jr. 6-3
     64 Kerry Murphy . DL Fr. 6-4
     46 Wesley Neighbors DB So. 6-1
     83 Kevin Norwood WR Fr. 6-2
     18 Morgan Ogilvie QB So. 6-0
     2 Tana Patrick LB Fr. 6-3
     84 Colin Peek TE Sr. 6-6
     39 Kyle Pennington DB Jr. 5-11
     68 Taylor Pharr OL Jr. 6-6
     54 Russell Rains OL Fr. 6-2
     13 Cory Reamer LB Sr. 6-4
     3 Trent Richardson RB Fr. 5-11
     8 Chris Rogers DB Sr. 6-0
     74 David Ross OL Jr. 6-3
     1 B.J. Scott DB So. 5-11
     46 Chris Scott WR Sr. 5-11
     50 Brian Selman SNP Sr. 6-0
     94 Darrington Sentimore DL Fr. 6-3
     26 Ali Sharrief DB Sr. 5-9
     94 Jeremy Shelley PK Fr. 5-10
     48 Travis Sikes WR Jr. 6-3
     71 Allen Skelton OL So. 6-1
     17 Brad Smelley TE So. 6-3
     92 Damion Square DL Fr. 6-3
     61 Anthony Steen OL-DL Fr. 6-3
     47 Ed Stinson LB-DL Fr. 6-4
     90 Milton Talbert DL Jr. 6-4
     99 Leigh Tiffin PK Sr. 6-2
     51 Carson Tinker ST So. 6-1
     87 Chris Underwood TE So. 6-4
     5 Roy Upchurch RB Sr. 6-0
     41 Courtney Upshaw LB So. 6-2
     73 William Vlachos OL Jr- 6-1
     65 Chance Warmack OL Fr. 6-3
     97 Lorenzo Washington DL Sr. 6-5
     91 Alex Watkins LB So. 6-3
     55 Chavis Williams LB Jr. 6-4
     60 David Williams OL Fr. 6-3
     89 Michael Williams TE Fr. 6-6
     9 Nick Williams WR Fr. 5-10
     27 Justin Woodall DB Sr. 6-2
     18 Rod Woodson DB Fr. 5-11

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6. 

   SoccerMike
   June 15th, 2010 - 00:04

   Regarding the list of attrition I am unclear. Orr and Smith are now on the roster and came in Jan. Are you referring to they grayshirted and did not sign that year to make room. Also McKeller is a grayshirt from the 2009 class. All 3 did grayshirt and arrived this spring. Lewis and Murphy are also on the roster now. Yes it helped that some grayshirted but the others had no option.

   Also Undra Billingsley was a redshirt freshman in 2008 and on the roster. He had no issues with grades. So you should take him off the list unless you have some other info.

   http://www.rolltide.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/billingsley_undra00.html

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   • 

     SoccerMike
     June 15th, 2010 - 00:27

     One of the things unclear is that the 2007 and 2008 list is for players that signed that year but are no longer with the team or came later in a different year. The 2009 and 2010 are not all players that signed in those years just players that left that current season. Seems like it would be better to have to seperate lists to track both.

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7. 

   Squall
   June 16th, 2010 - 08:37

   The Alabama attrition list you use is the one that i typed from Shaggybevo and you copied and pasted….

   It’s separated by recruiting years, not years the players left.

   So a player like prince hall, you would need to make a 2005 column, and post him under that column.

   thanks!!!

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8. 

   DP
   June 16th, 2010 - 10:13

   To get the bias issue out of the way upfront, I’m an Alabama alum. I don’t have any issue with the oversigning issue being followed closely, but fair is fair. The status on Terry Grant says in order: “scholarship not renewed, quit football, graduated”, as if Saban instigated the move by pulling Grant’s scholarship. This seems very unlikely to me. Grant started as a redshirt freshman in Saban’s first year and was the leading rusher, so it’s not like he can’t play. But he was injured for the last 2 or 3 games of that year and for large parts of the next 2 years. He is somewhat undersized for an SEC running back and appears to have chronic injuries. Saban praised Grant’s abilities and his work ethic on several occasions last year.

   So after completing his degree in 4 years and being hurt for most the last 2+ seasons and being no higher than 4th on the depth chart at his position (though he figured to return kickoffs if healthy as he did last year), Grant decided to quit football, to the surprise of virtually nobody who followed the program. The university is putting him on medical scholarship, his 5th scholarship year, to complete his graduate degree. This hardly seems unfair to Grant or to be any kind of abuse of the football scholarship process. Absent any comments from Grant that he was pushed off the team by Saban, I think the more appropriate comment next to Grant’s name should be “Graduated, chronic injuries, quit team, granted medical scholarship”.

   On a related note, though there is no evidence it happened in Grant’s case, I think it’s entirely reasonable for scholarships to be pulled from players who have been on scholarship for 4 years and earned their degree. I don’t think that a 4th string tight end who took a redshirt year as a freshman, played little in the next 3 years and earned his degree is getting a raw deal if his scholarship (which is year to year) isn’t renewed for a 5th year just because he has eligibility remaining.

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   • 

     deepsthboy
     June 16th, 2010 - 14:02

     DP, I don’t think there has been ANY evidence presented that there were “shenanigans” going on with ANY of the Bama players. The “evidence”, such as it is, has been presented in as dramatic a way as possible, with the intention of generating alarm and gasps from the reader, but the site has yet to present a shred of evidence that any wrongdoing has taken place.

     Not a very good return on the author’s investment.

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9. 

   Mario
   June 16th, 2010 - 15:02

   not a fun read….I have more questions than answers at this point…

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10. 

    SoccerMike
    June 17th, 2010 - 20:58

    Are you going to remove Billingsly from the list. I gave you a link that showed he arrived on campus for his class and redshirted. You have him listed as a non-qualifier because of grades. I know it looks good to have more people in your chart but this one is incorrect.

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    • 

      deepsthboy
      June 17th, 2010 - 21:40

      Mike, he has already said that some time next prong he may or may not make an effort to correct all of these factual errors. Give Josh a break. He’s real busy advocating to make sure Michael Jackson’s doctor isn’t allowed to sign off on all these bogus medical redshirts that are being given out.

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      • 

        deepsthboy
        June 17th, 2010 - 21:41

        Next spring, that is.

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11. 

    Dave Blaikie
    August 10th, 2010 - 01:52

    Blake Sims (was a late qualifier) has been working with the team since practice started. (#18)

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    • 

      Joshua
      August 10th, 2010 - 07:19

      Talking about Sims the QB, enrolled early.

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      • 

        Dave B
        September 30th, 2010 - 13:41

        Blake Sims an Ath from GA, was considered a non-qual until the very last minute before fall practice started (ASSUMED this was the Failed to qualify on your list for 2010) I would have thought if you were talking about Philip Sims the QB (who enrolled in January and participated in the Spring and Summer programs) you would not have indicated he did not qualify.

        ( REPLY )

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