Oversigning.com
4Aug/10151

Saban Gets Down to 85 on the Last Day

We'll have more on this later today, but Saban just announced that 1 player is transferring and two players are accepting a greyshirt and will delay enrollment until next year. We said months ago that Saban was over by 10 and that 10 players needed to go; until today we had 7 accounted for and today we got 8, 9, and 10.

The interesting part is that Alabama only has 9 scholarship players on their roster, and with two guys greyshirting this year that leaves only 7 openings for next year plus the juniors that leave for the NFL. Alabama currently has 16 verbal commitments for next year, so much like LSU, they are already over the limit and we will see the exact same thing next year that we have seen this year.

Update:

As we mentioned above, Saban announced earlier today that 3 guys won't be joining the team this fall, two of which have elected to greyshirt.  The one that is getting the most attention is Rod Woodson.  Here are some comments from Saban regarding Woodson and the situation:

"He will transfer and have an opportunity to do that," Saban said. "We were very helpful in trying to give him an opportunity someplace else. We wish him very well. He did a good job for us."

Multiple sources had previously indicated that academics could be an issue in Woodson's case. After the initial announcement, Saban later made it sound more like a dismissal from the team.

"I don't really feel it's a problem, when you have people in the organization who aren't accountable, how not having one would affect anything," Saban said. "We cannot make decisions about the future of players who aren't accountable for what they're supposed to do and not responsible to what they're supposed to do as a member of this team, regardless of what they issue is, behavioral, academic, football-related.

"We have a lot of good players on the team, and I would rather move somebody from another position to play where we don't have enough players than to allow somebody not to do the right things and be involved. I don't think we do anyone any good if we do that."

So did Woodson violate a written team rule or was he declared academically ineligible?  Doesn't sound like it.  Sounds like Saban simply didn't like what he saw out of Woodson, end of story.  Next.  Too bad Woodson didn't have an agent when he signed his letter of intent, maybe his agent could have negotiated a better contract for him when he signed.  That's where we are headed this this pattern, we all know it's coming. 

It is interesting that Saban refers to the University of Alabama as an "organization," he could have fooled us, we thought it was an institution of higher learning that enjoys a tax-exempt status because it exists to educate the masses.  Maybe we should start treating these schools like what they are, semi-pro "organizations," which flies directly in the face of every NCAA and University mission statement.

So here is what the final March looks like for Alabama:

2010 The March to 85 - Alabama

Player Position Reason for leaving after NSD
Terry Grant Running Back Scholarship not renewed
Travis Sikes Wide Receiver Scholarship not renewed
Rod Woodson Safety Scholarship not renewed
Star Jackson Quarterback Transfer, Georgia State Div 1AA.
Deion Belue Defensive Back Academically Ineligible; headed to JUCO
Alfy Hill Linebacker Academically Ineligible; future unknown
Taylor Pharr Offensive Lineman Medical Hardship
Milton Talbert Linebacker Medical Hardship
Darius McKeller Offensive Lineman Medical Hardship
Ronnie Carswell Wide Receiver Greyshirt
Wilson Love Defensive End Greyshirt


Sometimes a diagram is better than wordy explanations; we put together two diagrams that best depict the difference between how Alabama and LSU are managing their rosters compared to programs like Penn State, Notre Dame, USC, Texas, Ohio State, and other brand name power schools.

The first is the OVERSIGNING MODEL which gives the coaching staff an extra period of time to evaluate the players and make decisions on how they are going to get down to the NCAA mandated 85 scholarship players.  This model results in mandatory roster cuts or non-renewal of the 1-year scholarship agreement.

The second is the UNDERSIGNING MODEL or the model where we have coaches who exercise constraint and ethics in the recruiting process and who are guaranteed not to have cut anyone in order to stay under the 85 scholarship limit. 

It doesn't get any more cut and dry than the two diagrams above, and as we documented this year with LSU and Alabama this is exactly what is happening right now.  Couple of things to note: both teams started with 66 players; one signed 29 and one signed 17; both ended up at 85.

At the moment what the oversigners are doing is legal because the NCAA doesn't not prohibit schools from oversigning, but we are of the opinion that they don't realize just how badly it is being abused.  It is our goal here to raise awareness about oversigning and help make the NCAA realize that they have to do something about the entire signing process - it is completely out of control and it is damaging kids.  Not to mention, the NCAA mission is..

Our purpose is to govern competition in a fair, safe, equitable and sportsmanlike manner, and to integrate intercollegiate athletics into higher education so that the educational experience of the student-athlete is paramount.

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaahome?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/ncaa/NCAA/About%20The%20NCAA/Overview/mission.html

Our proposed solution has been to create a system where schools are required to declare the number of openings they expect to have before National Signing Day and be limited that number of signed letters of intent.  This number, and bear in mind we are adhering to the NCAA's mission statement that the educational experience of the student-athlete is paramount, will the number of players that have graduated and any juniors who opt for the NFL early.  That is who should be replaced, not some 3rd string DL who doesn't have the potential of the next 5* stud recruit.

In addition, we recommend that the NCAA require schools to prove that there is a scholarship available before a letter of intent is accepted.  This will eliminate scenarios where coaches like Saban and Miles knowingly accept more letters of intent then they have room for when the accept them, knowing full well they have 6 months to make arrangements in order to get down to 85.  Let's be honest here, guys like Star Jackson and Rod Woodson were dead men walking the minute Saban oversigned his class...everything else is window dressing.  This will also eliminate situations like what we saw at Miami this year where they didn't have scholarship room for Seantrel Henderson when they accepted his LOI so they cut someone in order to make room after the fact. 

We know what you are thinking, "well that will just lead to guys getting cut before hand instead of after."  We have a plan for that as well, as mentioned by one of our best posters here, Mario.  Require that each player leaving a team go through an exit interview at the NCAA office where the NCAA can monitor when players are released from a scholarship and get their side of the story as well as the schools.

That only leaves one issue on the table - the 1 year renewable scholarship rule.  We are on record here numerous times that the 1-year renewal scholarship is something that needs to be addressed as well.  Granted, you need to have something in place in order to remove a player who doesn't meet the academic requirements or violates a university policy, but giving the coaches power to make judgement calls on this not the answer (and save of the BS about the appeal process and the review process by university officials outside of the athletic department). 

Bottom line, there is no reasonable excuse for allowing oversigning, especially when the results are what we have seen over the last couple of days at Miami, LSU, and Alabama.

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Comments (151) Trackbacks (3)
  1. I hope you at least acknowledge that Saban, does a better job at communicating the situation to the recruits than miles; He seems to be fair in his dealings.

  2. It’s still early! Saban will probably sign 22 or so this year with the level of TOP TIER talent that is still giving The Tide strong consideration. It’s funny how you sit here and harp on this topic all the time, but somehow it always works out. At some point, you may have to admit that Saban knows more about recruiting than you do. This is NOT an exact science. Every year there are injuries, non-qualifiers, behavior problems, etc that thin out players. If you don’t “oversign” you would have a roster with 75 players on it and be sacrificing depth at several positions. I still have never heard of a situation where Saban screwed a kid over to get to 85 players. I’m sure Bama will be in a similar situation next year and will have 10+ players that they are over heading into Spring, but if you know anything about Nick Saban, I promise you, he has a plan.
    Roll Tide!

    • It “always works out” because he kicks guys off the team. Putting yourself in a position where you HAVE to remove 10 players from the team, one way or another, regardless of how many actually fail to qualify or have “behavioral problems” (which I’ll bet is code for “doesn’t throw the ball as well as this new guy” half the time), is irresponsible.

      And you haven’t heard of a situation where Saban screwed a kid over only because every time anything that looks sketchy happens you go “LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU”.

      • You’re an idiot and you’re ramblings only solidified what most already knew

        • You spelled “your” incorrectly. And no, he’s not an idiot. Hopefully this is the only time in my life I have to defend a Spartan, but math doesn’t lie.

  3. Woodson was probably going to have to start – he wasn’t somebody “run off” as a non-contributor.

  4. “somehow it always works out”

    Of course it does. Because on the last day, players are kicked off or forced into a greyshirt to make it work out.

    • I have news for you, this didn’t just happen. He tells these players that they may end up greyshirting. Show me one, just one, single piece of actual documentation where a player has accused Saban of lying to him when he was recruited. Rod Woodson has been in Saban’s doghouse since the previous fall. From what I heard, he was told in the spring to shape up or he would be gone, he did not so he is off somewhere else. If Saban were going to cut a player, just why in the hell would he cut a secondary player? The secondary is where we are the thinnest on depth. My god, you people need to get over yourselves. We are in the top 20% on our APR since Saban arrived. He is developing players that weren’t considered blue chippers while he let’s a blue chipper(Woodson) go because of the player’s attitude, not their natural talent. Is Nick Saban perfect, no, but please get off your soap box.

      • The numbers and the timeline don’t add up though…

        Saban made his decision on Woodson (and several others) back in February when he oversigned his roster essentially signing new recruits to their scholarships for the next year. If Woodson doesn’t go someone else has to and that is the whole problem. It’s one thing to put a guy on notice and give him time to correct what he is doing wrong (which by the way it doesn’t appear that he violated any written team rules nor is he academically ineligible – he simply isn’t living up to Saban’s standard, which is fine, but that needs to be writing on the front-end at a minimum, but really these are student-athletes, not professional free-agents), but it something else all together to go ahead and sign another player to his spot and then wait to see how the numbers shake out before making a final determination.

        You can’t have it both ways. By oversigning, Saban gets to evaluate Woodson over the spring and if he doesn’t like what he sees he can cut him and not have to worry because there are more than enough extra bodies to fill the slot. You guys will argue that he’s cutting a player with experience, why would he do that, but obviously that doesn’t matter to Saban…he would rather take another guy that he likes better and move him into that slot.

        Coaches that don’t oversign do not have that luxury – they do not get to look at 95 players over the spring and simply pick off the ones they don’t like. Coaches that don’t oversign have no other reason to remove a player outside of academics or violation of team rules – the ONLY reason Saban has to get rid of players (outside of academics or violations of team rules) is because if he doesn’t he will be in violation of the 85 scholarship limit.

        • The short answer to this is that Saban has a triage system. Put it this way, he signs 8 over, he lets 8 players know they may be greyshirted. Various things happen and at the end he is 3 over. One player that didn’t do what he needed to retain his scholarship makes the number 2. The two lowest priority players on that triage list get the greyshirt. I have never seen a recruit of Saban’s complain about this and I have even heard some say they were told when they were signing.

        • Joshua Joshua, you dont know what you are talking about. Woodson is a great athlete and was counted on to do some good things. The guy is an absolute missile in the defensive backfield. With Robby Green suspended, Woodson was expected to play a lot this year. This was a case of him breaking team rules, not your conspiracy theory. You may know a lot about OSU players, but you dont know squat about Bama players if you think Woodson was run off because he wasnt deemed good enough.

          • Saban didn’t seem to feel he was a big loss and if it was a violation of team rules then why was it not stated as such? My point is that there needs to be transparency here and there needs to be clear cut rules, in writing. The whole problem is that everything is at the coach’s discretion. If Woodson violated a team rule or was academically ineligible then fine, state the case and send him packing…but if this is simply a case of Saban not liking what he saw and wants to give someone else a shot then I don’t see any reason why he can’t do that within the confines of the roster and move Woodson to 3rd string and make him earn his way back.

            • because Saban doesnt put players business out in the public eye. It is not anyones business but his, the player’s and the school. And if it is kept in house, it lessens any impediment for a player to transfer to another school. He has starting making players toe the line or else. And sometimes, players have to go, so that the rest of the team understands. You thought there was something underhanded with Alonzo Lawrence too, until he had the same issues at Southern Miss also.

              Saban doesnt have to put a players business in the public eye and doesnt. nothing wrong with that, and no need to embarrass someone if you dont have to.

              • Well stated Tre. Joshua, from the Birminham News:

                She [his mother] was under the impression that her son’s grades weren’t a problem. There “might have been” an off-the-field incident recently involving her son, she said, but she declined to elaborate, saying she knew no details.

                It seems that there was at least a conflict of personalities.

  5. Ty,
    Don’t try and educate this guy…he’s a moron. Nevermind the fact that Rod Woodson would probably start for over 100 of the 120 D1 Schools at Safety, Saban is running him off because he wasn’t good enough. The day Saban starts running off Top 120, 4 Star Players because they aren’t good enough is the day Bama has just finished winning their 4th National Title in a Row… My guess is that’s not going to happen. Here’s a link to Woodson’s profile and he’s outperformed his ranking since arriving on campus from everything that’s been said.
    http://rivals.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/football/recruiting/player-Rod-Woodson-78340;_ylt=Ag5o5tuJIWhtMnjIcQmwSGtDPZB4

  6. Here’s a quote from Saban about Woodson. You’re right, Saban sounds like a real ass of a guy…
    “Everybody has a responsibility for their own self-determination and that’s called accountability and dependability,” he added, apparently about Woodson. “We have a lot of good players on the team I’d rather move someone from another position to play where we don’t have enough players then to allow someone not to do the right things and be involved. I don’t think it does anyone any good if we do that.”

    Sounds like a guy trying to teach life lessons to kids to me… If you ask me, we need more guys like Saban in College Football.

    • does not conform to my pre conceived narrative of “Sabin =’s all that is wrong with CFB and is also why my team cannot compete with his…”

      so i’m going to have to dismiss what you’ve just posted as HOMERISM!!!!!

  7. Nope. No ‘Bama homers here.

    • Nope, no whiners spending entirely too much time worrying about UA’s recruit signing process and not worrying about their pitiful team(Michigan fans) or the fact they are the SEC’s bitch(tOSU fans).

      • bamachine,

        Win more than one then talk….I don’t get the small mindedness of SEC fans….must be convenient to have 12 teams to root for each Fall. Bottom line, academics and student welfare take a back seat to athletic prowess (or the perceived potential athletic prowess) in all of college athletics, but in no place is it worse than the SEC. Do I think Saban is the worst of the lot, no. Is he guilty somewhat of the issues spoken of here, yes. Is he working the system to his advantage, yes. Will the system in the very near future change, yep. And that is why you SEC folks are here paying attention, because you know this shady practice, outlawed in other conferences, gives you a significant advantage and you do not want to see it go away. Alas, like in slavery and segregation, the South will have to be forced to change. Well, at least people down there can still wear their wife beater’s, getting drunk on cheap beer while sitting in their rusted pick-ups, going drrrr….footbal….drrr.

        Imagine a world where one would go to college for an education as much as they did to play and have an awersome football experience. The unspoken fact (and it is a FACT) is that the SEC 10 or so (w/Alabama, Auburn, Ole Miss, Tenn, Miss St, Arkansas, and LSU being the worst) are the equivalent educationally to most Juco schools in the rest of the country. But hey, its cheap and they play fuuuutttttbbbbbaaaallll, so life is good for the working ignorant and poor.

        • You may be the single biggest moron I have ever seen on the internet, or anywhere else for that matter.

          • Coming from you, that is most certainly the best compliment I’ve ever received. Do you work, or are you on welfare like the rest of your Alabama folks?

        • And they say that southerners are the ones with closed minds and extreme prejudices.

        • You are why there is the whole SEC, SEC, SEC chant. You make sweeping generalizations based on nothing more than your own antiquated ideas. I posted elsewhere here that UA football under Saban is in the top 20% in APR, so are several other SEC schools. UA is a Tier I university and is ranked amongst the top 50 public universities every year, has been in the top 10. For more accolades, go here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Alabama#Rankings_and_Accolades. If you want to continue on with your verbal tripe, please do continue. Your pompous attitude makes it even sweeter when you get your ass kicked on the field. FWIW, we have won more than 1(by a large margin) and as for tOSU, they are 0-3 vs us “hicks”. You may also want to lay off the “ignorant” smack as it oozes from every pore of your worthless hide.

          I am done with this mockery of a site. Here is a clue, worry about your own damned teams and we will worry about ours.

        • Well, lets see I am positive that they have won 13 so that takes care of that statement. Now on to your rant or whatever you call it about the South and the SEC. I don’t know where your located at but no matter where your located or for that matter all over this country and in every conference there are fanatics, idiots, morons, and jackasses. And I think I am answering a post from one. If all you can do is put down the south then why don’t you stay the hell off of this website. I served in the U.S. NAVY for 22 years to give you the right to run your D@@@sucker on here. And all you do is put people down. Well, let me say this A@@EYES, I have been around the WORLD 3 different times and been in 47 of the 50 states in this OUTSTANDING COUNTRY and people everywhere wear wife beaters, get drunk on cheap beer, and sit in rusted out pickups.

          So its not just the South or the SEC. It’s all over the country in every state. Every football team and institution is trying to get ahead and gain an edge on their competition. Hell, just look at USC. And they will all do it until they get caught. Just the way it is. But, you want to ridicule people just because that happens to be where they were born or where they live. I am 52 years old and I am a DIEHARD Alabama fan. So life is good for me. And I am not IGNORANT or POOR.

          But, I bet you think that your smarter than everyone on here HUH. I really doubt that you are. What you really need is something that we used to do in the NAVY back in the day when someone had a bad attitude. You need a little adjustment. Then maybe you will stop running people down because of where they live or how the make a living or what they do for entertainment. And if all of the listed schools in your post are equivalent to JUCO’s then I’ll gladly go there and do my 2 years. I know they are probably to low for your standards but hey its all good.

          Don’t know why but your post struck a nerve and it really pissed me off. So if you really want to continue your berating of the south and southern people then I can only wish that we could meet oneday face to face and see if you want to keep running your gums. I doubt it very seriously.

        • too bad we dont have a bunch of hig paying auto industry and steel jobs to go too. oh wait WE do, its you losers up north with the withering infrastuctures, soaring jobless rates, and modern ghost towns like toledo. yeah too bad we cant all live in the rust belt and get swollen egos and bellys from all the sub par football and wisconsin cheese.

  8. What is he gonna do next year? These are all his recruits now. Can’t blame it on me.

    • Thank you for trying your best and holding things together until we got a real coach. Loved ya as a player and appreciate the hard work as a coach. You just sucked at discipline and game management. Best wishes and tell your dad to kiss my …

    • yes, his recuits break team rules, yours broke the law. Thanks for you time as coach, you will always be a Bama alum.

  9. Need more guys like Saban in college football…you’ve got to be joking here, right??? Saban treats college football players like a commodity. These kids mean nothing to him, unless they can get his ugly mug and bouffant hairdo on primetime t.v. Stop sipping the kool aid TideFactor…er, I mean stop drinking the big gulp kool aid. Saban is a business man. There’s nothing wrong with that, if you want a man like him leading your kids. Personally, I’d prefer a GENTLEMAN, in every sense of the word. Winning is important, no doubt, but how you go about winning is more important. Saban is only interested in the end result, no matter how many he must step on and/or over in order to reach that result. More Sabans is definitely NOT what college football needs. Good try, though.

    • “Saban is only interested in the end result…”

      Clearly you have never heard a word the man has ever said. Don’t you know it’s all about the process?

    • You are correct, Saban is a business man and his business is kicking ass. He develops players, graduates players at a very respectable rate and is beloved by many of his “commodities”. I am sure some of them get tired of his ass chewing then you see him doing chest bumps with Terrance Cody, Mark Ingram, etc.

  10. So…let me get this straight – a random fan, who very possibly has never stepped foot on a college or HS field, is tired of seeing his team or conference beaten on the field, so in a vain effort to find something to hang his hat on he goes and creates an entire freaking website entirely about this supposed massive injustice? Seriously? Someone has time for this s@*%?

    The fact that some geek has taken on this issue as the defining crusade of his life is far more disturbing than the fact that a handful of underperformers/troublemakers/slackers allegedly lose their free ride to a university due to oversigning. The NCAA rulebook is THE SAME FOR EVERYBODY. Deal with it. And go find another sports crusade to fight, like health treatment for former NFL stars, etc. What a complete waste of bandwidth….

  11. jsnable ask the players what they think of Saban. They LOVE him. He has more in place for player development than 99% of programs out there.

    Woodson had off the field issues. In fact, the player discipline council; that Saban has in place, was involved with the decision to have him leave the team. It is easy (and lazy) to go after Saban “the villain”, I just wish more people would take the time and do real research. Saban > Tressel and it’s not even close.

    • kj,

      As we both know, Saban doesn’t say “gosh” and “gee” and he doesn’t look like he should be teaching history to 7th graders. That’s because he is a football coach. I grew up during the 70s when Bama was winning the SEC championship every year and contending for NCs most years. The venom spewed then too, but I didn’t have to hear it as much since there was no internet.

      What I find so incredibly ironic is that these Ohio State fans can summon up so much sanctimonious hogwash when they had the most abusive coach in the history of CFB for 25 years or so–Woody Hayes. Not only did Hayes mentally and physically abuse his own players (he was fired from a high school coaching job for that reason), but he committed the single most atrocious act of player abuse in the history of sports when he slugged that kid on national TV in the Gator Bowl.

      Yes indeed, Saban is the real bad guy. Right.

      • When in doubt bring up Woody and the “most atrocious act of player abuse in the history of sports” ( LOL, and for which he was fired ). You have never once on the multiple sites you troll proved that Woody mentally and physically abused his players. There are plenty of them still alive, go find one and ask them about Woody. BTW,what was the name of that HS and where was it?

        Saban is fit to shine Woody or Jim Tressel’s shoes. And FYI, that history teacher has the same number of NC’s as the guy who wears suits from the 70′s.

        • From “A Fire to Win”, a biography of Woody Hayes:

          Legendary Ohio State football coach Woody Hayes died in 1987, but his legacy lives on. Lombardo presents Hayes’ youth in rural Ohio as the cornerstone of the values that would guide him all his life. Education was critical to Hayes’ family, and it was the call to teaching that eventually led to coaching. Lombardo follows Hayes’ career from his first high-school job–from which he was dismissed for being abusive to his players–to small Denison University to Miami of Ohio and finally to Ohio State. Hayes’ volatile, on-field personality–in his last collegiate game, he punched an opposing player, leading to his almost immediate dismissal–stood in sharp contrast to the scholarly, empathetic, and generous man who was revered by players and associates. Lombardo explores these contradictions without delivering any conclusions, but even Hayes seemed unable to control his demons, let alone understand them. Typical of sports biographies, there’s a bit too much then-they-played narrative, but on balance, this is a sympathetic yet evenhanded examination of a modern coaching giant. Wes Lukowsky
          Copyright © American Library Association. All rights reserved

          He was fired from his college coaching job for the same reason. If that stuff happened today, he would be prosecuted and be highly vulnerable to civil lawsuits.

          Are you talking about Tressel’s Pop Warner championships? Don’t make me laugh, bud.

          • DSB…I think you have ADD or something…I can’t remember the last time you posted something of substance on the topic of oversigning. You continue to use this site as a litter box for your hatred of Ohio State. I let you go on because you were one of the first readers here and once you stopped the personal attacks and starting acting civil I decided to let you continue here. Look man, I get it, believe me, I get it, but if you just want to run smack, which is fine we all do it from time to time, find a message board somewhere that encourages that. It’s obvious that you love to banter back and forth with the Buckeye fans – surely you can find another place to scratch that itch. We’re talking about the problem of oversigning here and trying to discover the best solution to the problem. Be a part of the solution – you have a gift for writing and you are very well educated – seems like a shame to waste all of that doing nothing but running smack at Buckeye fans.

            • Josh, puh-leeze man. You dedicate an entire thread to hammering me and then you post this? Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle.

              I have had ample commentary on the topic of oversigning. Even lately. I said I was highly suspicious of the Wesley situation at Miami, even though it has been reported here in Atlanta, by a guy who is pretty well on the inside at Da U, that there were definite academic issues with him.

              On the LSU stuff, I must say that it looks very dubious indeed.

              Anything I post that is “off topic” is generally when some jackass decides he has to make a generic statement about how abhorrent a man Nick Saban is. I think he’s an honorable man and a great coach. If someone feels they need to run him down, then there’s a good chance I will respond with something that airs dirty underwear of the program which that individual supports. Again, I respect what you’re doing, even if I disagree, so long as you are letting both sides air their grievances. Maybe it just feels worse when it’s your program that people are taking shots at? Imagine that.

            • He is on at least 4-5 other sites doing the same thing under multiple aliases. This is just one of them.

          • OH SNAP BuckeyeXB, what do you have to say now?

            Lol, Saban is fit to shine Tressel’s shoes? Is that before or after Tressel has a booster pay his players to make them dirty first? Say what you want to about Saban, and people say a lot, he doesnt have issues with players getting paid by boosters, especially not at 2 different schools.

            • No, his players just sell their books, no need for a booster. You keep talking about two schools. At Ohio State Troy Smith accepted $500 from a booster and when Tressel found out he reported it to the NCAA, made him pay the money back and suspended him for 2 games one being a bowl. Clarett lied and the NCAA ruled that the punishment from tOSU was enough. If that is “dirty” Saban is filthy.

              • that was going on before Saban got to Bama. It was a administration issue as it was being done by athletes from multiple teams, not just football.

                I notice you are not mentioning anything about his time at YSU.

                • Why would I? It’s well known that they were sanctioned by the NCAA. You keep saying two schools when there was no sanctions at tOSU by the NCAA.

              • No books were sold. No athelete was making money off of that as every book that was in question was returned at the end of the semester.

                • So, ‘Bama is on probabation and had wins stripped for??

                • For “improper benifits” and since the offense occured in the tail end of the previous probation, they re-instated the probation. No books were sold. The players were getting more books than they needed and letting friends use them for the semester, but (just like with their own books) every book was returned after classes were completed. This is well-documented, and the NCAA admitted in their report that no money was made by the students.

              • actualyl the “textbook scandal” wasn’t at all about players being able to seel there books, it was that the university gave them free access to textbooks. thats all. so the “abuses” were essentially someone getting books for their girlfriend and then turning them back into the bookstore after the semester was over. some players helped their friends save money at the bookstore. no books were sold for profit. this is per the NCAA’s findings. try reading about stuff before you talk about it, you’ll look less like a fool.

          • I have read the same thing, however it is an thumbnail of the book and a reveiw. Now, if you can find in that book or somewhere when it states the name of the HS and where it was, then you can use that to continue your rant. Other wise, shut your yap.

            I am talking about BCS NC’s, Saban 1, Tressel 1.

            • So you’re suggesting that this biography is purporting false information? Yeah, OK. The guy spends however much time it takes to write a biography and it is published (publishers tend to vet out books, in case you weren’t aware of protocol), but includes a highly inflammatory, yet “false” assertion?

              I don’t remember what network it was that televised the 1978 Gator Bowl, but I suppose the next thing you will be calling for is a full scale investigation into how that network could have falsified the video if Hayes hitting Charlie Bauman.

              Are you a holocaust denier too?

              • What you copied was not an exerpt from the book, it was a REVIEW of the book. Show me a passage from the actual book that says that Woody was fired from a HS job with the name of the school and where it was located and the dates. Ever wonder when you google it, the only thing that comes up is that REVIEW?? I haven’t ever denied that Woody hit Bauman. Why would I do that? What you are claiming (one more than one site) is that Woody was fired from a HS with not one shred of evidence to prove it. Other than A REVEIW of book about him.

                The holocaust comment speaks to what a complete ass hole you are.

                The game was on CBS btw.

                • I have no plans to buy the book so that I can cite the page and paragraph. What was on there was a SYNOPSIS, which is different from a REVIEW, or do they teach the difference where you went to school?

                  And yes, I have absolutely posted that same statement about Woody Hayes on multiple forums. It is the result of being just out and out sick to death of reading Saban-bashing tripe from people like yourself. If you were a Texas fan, and you grew up with Darrell Royal as your icon of what’s right and wrong in coaching, then I would have no beef with you. But Woody Hayes, while an icon to OSU fans, was a bully and borderline psychotic in his behavior. He’s the wacko who tore up a yardage marker during a game. He’s the guy who was filmed in a documentary (I wish I could recall the name–I saw it on HBO probably 8-10 years ago) jerking several players around by their helmets while berating and cursing them. I don’t give a crap if his players liked him or not. The guy was a nut job. The fact you or anyone else would have the freaking ‘nads to bang on Saban when that is what your school uses as a role model for a good choice goes beyond irony–I am not even sure the word exists to describe how incredibly out of whack that is.

                  Are you sure that Bauman hit wasn’t just a “review” of the game?

                • If you only want to read sweet bed time stories about St. Nick, stick to Tide blogs. You claim to hate the Buckeyes, Woody, Tressel, Pryor and all of the fans, and yet you are obsessed with our opinions. Why would you give a damn what anonymous blogger’s have to say about ‘Bama or Saban? If you are so “sick to death” of it, why bother? Do you think for one second your opinion actually matters to the folks on the sites you troll? Good god, you have at least 3 aliases on Bleacher Report since they gave you the boot and keep trying hop on the O-Zone despite them kicking you off. I am not even sure the word exists to describe how incredibly out of whack that is.

                  GET THIS THROUGH THAT THICK SKULL OF YOURS: NO ONE CARES WHAT YOU THINK. Not here, not on BR, SN or Rivals.

                  Troll on

                • If you “don’t care” about what I say, then why oh why do you feel compelled to comment on it at all? If it’s of no consequence to you, then why even bother with the keystrokes. What a pointless effort on your part.

            • Tressel 1, Saban 2. I forgot about LSU before he left to go to Miami after promising he wouldn’t.

            • saban has 2 BCSNC’s

        • Easy buckeyeXB… Woody won 3 National Titles in 300 games with 1 school. Saban has won 2 Titles with 2 Different Teams (only coach to EVER do that) in 175 games. Saban’s resume isn’t what Woody’s is YET, but I REALLY like Saban’s chances to win 1 or more titles in the next 10 seasons. Woody had a solid program for a while, Saban’s Dynasty is just beginning. IF Saban wins his 3rd Title this year, Woody better get out his shine box… I hope it’s Bama vs Ohio State in the Title Game this year, Saban won’t let the players stop playing at halftime in Tempe… It will be a 4 Qtr BURIAL.

          • He’s talking about Tressel and the Pop Warner championships that he won at YSU. As if those even approached anything a coach does in 1-A. Truly laughable. If that were the mark of a great coach, then Jerry Moore would have been coaching at a top 1-A school many years ago. Outrageously absurd.

          • I will repeat what I said: JIM TRESSEL AND NICK SABAN HAVE THE SAME NUMBER OF BCS NC’S: ONE

            I realize that winning is the only thing that matters to you, however I wasn’t referring to NC’s when I compared Woody and Jim Tressel to Saban. And I stand by my comment. Saban doesn’t belong in the same sentence as those two.

            One NG is the beginning of a dynasty? You mean like USC?

            I hope ‘Bama doesn’t show up in Tempe. Ohio State will be in Glendale wondering where you guys are.

            • Oops, I forgot Saban has one from LSU. Jim Tressel has one because he has been the coach at one school for the last ten years and didn’t leave to go to the NFL and then bolt to another school in the interim.

              • so you would think that Tressel should have more than one. He hasnt had to rebuild 2 different schools and bring them up to elite standards. He has owned the Big 10 for years, and keeps getting run over in the CG.

              • buckeyeXB,
                Seriously, do you really believe the stuff you are saying? I don’t even think I have heard Tressel’s name mentioned for an NFL job. Saban not only has 2 Titles compared to Tressel’s 1, but he is also 2-0 in Title Games vs Tressel’s 1-2, with the 2 being BEATINGS. IF, and this is a BIG IF, Bama wins another title this year, I think you can easily say this is the beginning of a Dynasty. Going undefeated during the regular season in the SEC 2 years in a row hasn’t been done in like 30+ years and Saban did while the SEC is the most dominant conference College Football has seen in decades, maybe EVER. What did USC do? Won 1 BCS Title that they cheated to get and is now being taken away… Won an AP title in the BCS era, which doesn’t mean anything more to me than what Auburn won the year they went undefeated…nothing. Sure USC won a ton of games in a girl conference, good for them. They don’t have any legit titles and are short 1 Heisman, if you call that a Dynasty, you need some help.

                • Of course I do or I would say it.

                  I am sorry I did not mention that my sarcasm meter was in the ON position when I referred to USC.

    • Why don’t you ask Ben Wilkerson how committed Saban is to his “commodities”? After ruining Wilkerson’s knee by keeping him in for a meaningless series up about 4 touchdowns with less than 5 minutes left in the game, he bailed on the team to jump to the NFL leaving Ben as an undrafted free agent due to injury despite being a Rimington award winner as the nation’s top Center and being rated a top draft prospect before his injury. So how did Saban, head coach of an NFL franchise show his commitment to his players? Did he use a late round draft pick on Ben to give him the shot he was denied by Saban’s absurd exploitation? Did he offer him an undrafted free agent contract? Did he invite him to a tryout, or even help him out with an intern position or anything?

      No. Nick Saban dropped Ben Wilkerson like an old cell phone because that is basically how Saban views everyone and everything (as is obvious from every single documented action he has ever taken): a tool to advance his own success and devoid of any other meaning.

      Or maybe you can give an example of Nick Saban sacrificing anything that could potentially hurt his chances for personal success in order to help a fellow human being, show anything resembling loyalty, or advancing anything remotely resembling a shred of decent moral character.

      • please, injuries happen. Mike Shula had Tyrone Prothro, one of the best WR’s i saw play at Bama, and he got his leg broken in 3 places and never recovered. NEVER. walks with a limp to this day. At least Wilkerson got to play in the NFL. Unless you know the exact depth chart for the OL when Saban was there, you have no idea about him ‘keeping someone in a meaningless series’. the OL typically is left in most of the game.

        And if he is so bad, how does someone like Mark Ingram come to Bama? Mark Ingrams mom knew Saban when he coaches Mark Ingram Sr. Knew him enough to send her son away from home down to Bama.

        • this is out of line: “Mark Ingrams mom knew Saban when he coaches Mark Ingram Sr. Knew him enough to send her son away from home down to Bama”

          does not conform to narrative we’re trying to push here. get on board or go away pal. CNS=’s OMG TEHWORST EVAHR

      • I almost never see the O-line pulled in a game, no matter the score. You will see them substitute a little here and there but only the skill players are usually pulled early. As for what kind of person Nick is, go here, http://www.nickskidsfund.com/

  12. The other thing you guys need to know is that Mal Moore has a mandate at Bama. The coaching staffs of all teams are to stay thirty days ahead of any NCAA mandates for roster sizes and the like. Just because we only just “heard” about the last players to leave before fall practice doesn’t mean that the coaching staff just got all of the stars aligned (pun intended). This plan has been in place since early July. Count on it.

    85. Just like the rules say.

  13. You know, Saban’s only doing what he’s very much allowed to do under the current system, so let’s not go overboard, but I really don’t understand how Bama fans can say there’s absolutely nothing shady about this practice. Like it or not, Saban runs off players who aren’t performing. Does it make sense from a football standpoint? Hell yes. Does it make sense from the supposed standpoint that these are STUDENT athletes (where the part about the education comes before the part about the football). No, not even close. But oversigning is hardly the only problem with collegiate athletics. In short, I’m not ready to call the man Satan or Ole’ Nick, but anyone without crimson and white blinders on can see he’s no saint for the practice.

    • That’s a honest and fair opinion, but allow me to nit pick what I feel is an importent point. You say that Nick runs off players who aren’t performing, but the facts don’t support this. Yes a lot of guys have left the program over the last few years, and while some of them have been benchwarmers, many have been meaningful supporters. Take this year’s crop for example:
      Terry Grant was the starting runningback a few years ago. He got passed in the depth chart (partly due to multiple injuries) and his style didn’t fit Bama’s power running game under Saban, but he consistently got carries even last year (when he wasn’t injured) as a change-of-pace back.
      Talor Pharr was expected to contribute on the OL this year, and was actually said to be the most dependable punter in spring practice (something the Tide desperately needs right now)
      Rod Woodson – as mentioned by others on this thread, Woodson is a terrific athelete and was expected to start or at least contribute heavily at cornerback – the Tide’s biggest question mark on this season. Certainly not the player at the position that a smart coach would cut.
      A look back will show that Saban does push guys out the door, no denying that – but the reason for this has shown to be behavioral much more than performance as there have been some very good players that have left.

    • I don’t disagree with your statement. Saban is working the rules as they’re written. He’s planning on a certain amount of attrition for grades, injuries, behavioral issues, etc. If he doesn’t get the level of attrition he expected there’s a problem.

      I don’t have any problem with Saban running off student athletes who aren’t living up to team rules, nor do I think he has an obligation to air all the specifics on a kid in public. I don’t have a problem with not giving a player who is a minor contributor and/or chronically injured on the football team a 5th year on scholarship if he’s already graduated. To me if you’ve been on scholarship for 4 years and earned your degree and were treated fairly while you were there you have nothing to complain about. However, if I saw any indications he was lying to recruits or pulling the rug out from under them (as Miles apparently just did with the kid who found out there’s not a scholarship available for him unless he agrees to grayshirt) or cutting student athletes other than 5th year seniors who were low on the depth chart but doing everything expected of them, I’d have a real problem with it.

      I’d have no issue with the NCAA putting in a limit you can only have 85 scholarships plus LOIs out at one time, excluding players whose eligibility has or will expire before the next season and players who have declared for the NFL.

      Saban is no saint nor is anybody else coaching college football that I’m aware of. But I’ve seen nothing to suggest that he’s operating outside of NCAA rules or that he’s not always upfront with his players about expectations in the program. I read recently that one of his commitments for 2011 (who has plenty of offers from other top programs) was now a “soft commitment” after Saban got on him to lose some weight and get his grades up. He’s not telling kids he’s going to be their best friend or promising them playing time when he recruits them and then laying down the law after they get there. The kids who commit to him know what they’re getting and my guess is most of them will tell you now or 20 years from now that they’re glad they played for him.

      • This is what is so frustrating, no one said Saban is breaking the rules. We have said this a million times. Saban, Miles, and others are exploiting an obvious loophole in the NCAA by laws that enables them to sign more players than they have room for if they all make it. You combine that with the fact that the LOI is a one-way binding agreement that binds the student to the school but not the school to the student, and then add in the 1 year scholarship rule and you end up with a stack of rules that fly in the face of the mission of the NCAA. In some conferences they realize these loopholes exist and have added conference rules that prohibit the exploitation of the NCAA by laws. Those are the facts. The NCAA is just as much to blame here as the coaches who knowning exploit the loophole. What we have is a conference (sec) that is going to sign the NCAA max every year and figure out a way to cut the dead wood (dead wood being a number of things not just on the field); then you have most everyone else projecting how many normal spots they will have and then signing that amount. Those teams never have to cut players to make room. The result is that you see a conference with much stronger and deeper teams, well no kidding look at all the players they went through to get the best 85.

        • I think DP makes some great points. I think Saban is a better “person” than the rest of you guys do and I think over the next 10 years, that will shake out. The first thing Saban tells a kid is that he is going to develop them as a person, as a MAN and as a student athlete, before developing them as a football player. You routinely read where recruits are so impressed at how much they feel like Saban cares about them as a person, not just a football player. Most players even say that during the recruiting process, Saban rarely talks to them about committing or recruiting, but about how they are doing in school and life. Players that played for Bear or Stallings all have great things to say about the way those coaches shaped them as men. I think Saban’s players will say the same. I think he’s the closest thing we have today to the “old school” coaches of yesterday that made College Football what it is today.
          As for the oversigning piece. The reverse side of this coin is the situation USC finds themself in today. With the exit of 5-6 players, they now only have 71 players under scholarship!!! 71!!! They can also only sign 15 players a year for the next 3 years. They will probably have 55 players on their roster at some point which will absolutely devastate their team. I bet they wish they had 95 players in camp during the Spring right now…don’t you?

        • I haven’t seen you say that Saban is breaking the rules but I’ve seen you print a lot of stuff without any regard for the truth. Here’s one from the piece we’re commenting on:

          “Let’s be honest here, guys like Star Jackson and Rod Woodson were dead men walking the minute Saban oversigned his class…everything else is window dressing.”

          Rod Woodson was in a dead heat coming out of spring with Robert Lester to be the starter at Alabama’s thinnest position, safety. One of the Alabama beat reporters projected Woodson as the likely starter. You’re saying here that Saban knew Woodson was gone before spring practice started because national signing day was before spring practice. So why did he give Woodson reps in the spring?

          If it was strictly a roster numbers decision, given the talent on hand, years of eligibility remaining and depth at each position, Saban could have probably found at least 30-40 players who he would have “cut” ahead of Woodson. By booting him out of the program, Saban will end up having to give significant playing time to somebody who has recently converted from another position and/or is a true freshman. He has one returning starter (Mark Barron) and one guy who redshirted as a freshman and played some special teams last year (Robert Lester) for the 2 safety positions. Behind them are a guy who redshirted as a receiver last year as a freshman but is now being converted to safety (Kendall Kelly) and 3 true freshmen who weren’t in spring practice and will have their first practice tonight. He may convert a corner to safety, but he has nobody with much game experience at corner either. Saban’s defensive system frequently uses 5 and 6 defensive backs on the field at the same time. You have continually suggested that Saban and other coaches simply cut players who are down on the depth chart. Based on the situation I’ve laid out here, if you were Saban and all you cared about was winning would you cut Rod Woodson?

          You said Star Jackson was cut. I linked an article in which Jackson said it was his decision to transfer and he learned a lot in his time at Alabama. But you brush it off because you know better.

          I think oversigning is a legitimate issue but you’re not in much of a position to speak on truth and integrity when you take so many liberties with the truth yourself. But I see you’ve changed the status on Terry Grant from “cut” to medical issues and graduation, so maybe there’s some hope for you. If you really want to have influence on this or any other issue you’ll have a better chance of getting somewhere if you stick to the facts instead of spinning everything to support your thesis.

          And by the way, you’ve got Blake Sims on your list. He was cleared academically by the NCAA today and will practice this evening according to his father. You don’t have Deion Belue, who has not yet qualified academically.

          • Saban is quoted as saying he doesn’t care about how many players he has or who he has at a certain position because he will move a guy around if he has to…your point holds mo water because you are saying that saban wouldn’t cut woodson because of his experience, yet saban is quoted as saying he doesn’t care about that.

            • Good God man, work on the reading comprehension. Saban is saying that he’ll boot somebody who isn’t living up to his requirements whether he’s a starter or at a position of need or the last guy on the roster, and he’ll move somebody else from another position to fill in the hole if necessary. You’ve been suggesting that he will cut the bottom guys on the roster.

            • Whoa there Josh, that is way out of context. Look at his whole statement: “We have a lot of good players on the team, and I would rather move somebody from another position to play where we don’t have enough players than to allow somebody not to do the right things and be involved, I don’t think we do anyone any good if we do that.” Your spin on things like this only strengthens DP’s criticism.

  14. According to Woodson’s MOM: “there might have been an off-the-field incident.”(see al.com/alabamafootball for the article). When mom says “might have been” you can bet there was. The Tide needed Rod Woodson. But when he messed up, Saban did not give him special treatment that would have resulted in keeping a quality football player (i.e. which would have given Saban, himself, a greater chance for success this year). Uh oh, dare we say Nick Saban displayed integrity…

  15. It’s really comical watching all the ‘Bama fans stick up for their team when it is obvious they are skirting the rules and gaining a huge advantage on everyone else. You can chalk this up to a long history of cheating and to the King of All Cheaters that wore the plaid hat. When you cheat to win for decades, it just becomes second nature.

  16. From an ESPN article on the subject –

    Saban had more definitive updates on several other players, including what he described as the “mutually agreed” decision for sophomore safety Rod Woodson to transfer to another program.
    That move potentially creates more depth issues in an already inexperienced secondary which lost three starters and several reserves. But Saban said he’s not losing sleep over the departure.
    Woodson played in 12 games as a freshman, mostly on special teams.
    “I don’t care how many players we have,” Saban said. “We have a lot of good players on this team, and I would rather move somebody from another position to play where we don’t have enough players than to allow somebody not to do the right things and be involved. I don’t think we do anyone any good if we do that.”
    The secondary got a boost with junior college transfer DeQuan Menzie’s recovery from a torn Achilles tendon sustained during a spring pickup basketball game.
    Saban said Menzie has participated in the players’ summer conditioning program for at least two weeks.
    “We are hoping that we’ll be able to continue to progress him so that he can get to 100 percent by the opening game,” Saban said. “Provided he doesn’t have a setback from a medical standpoint, we think that’s very possible for him.”

    I don’t suppose there is a chance that Menzie’s arrival/recovery had anything to do with Woodson’s discipline problems finally getting the better of him. I am just speculating, but it does seem strange that any grace that Saban extended to Woodson ended as soon as there was a viable replacement. This does not mean that all of Alabama’s transfers, grade and criminal problems are not legit – all programs have some. It also does not mean that Woodson may not have had some issue, but the fact that Saban’s patience with Woodson ran out at the same time a JC replacement became available is curious.

    • Menzie suffered his Achilles injury a very short time ago. Counting on someone to return from that, at a speed position, in 5 months isnt something that coaches who last long will do. And Menzie plays CB, Woodson plays safety, 2 completely different positions and skill sets for a Saban DB.

      • I don’t disagree with either of your points. The fact remains that someone had to go. Would the last kid off the bubble be a DB with Menzie’s questions out there or say a DLineman with potential (not likely, but potential) eligibility questions swirling around Dareus? Saban must weigh all these roster questions along with the on and off-field strengths and weaknesses of the bubble kids. Teams that do not oversign still weigh the roster questions when deciding who and how many to recruit. These teams also make decisions based on issues that come up in the classroom or courthouse. The difference is that the two decisions do not overlap. If a kid gets in trouble and deserves to be kicked off the team, that decision can be made solely on the merits of the case and the kid, not because a roster spot is needed.

        • if someone had to go, why wouldnt it have been someone in an area that wasnt so drastically hurt and in need of players? Coaches like Saban arent dumb, you dont take your weakness and make it worse? He is said to have some WR’s playing in the DB area now, why not find an excuse to get rid of one of them since they obviously arent good enough to stay as a WR?

          • Lee Roi,

            The way I see it, Saban has a list of guys he has told they may need to greyshirt. If Woodson had not left, one more of the new guys that are likely to redshirt anyway would have likely greyshirt instead. Not picking out another guy to kick off. This is a big point that Joshua ignores or refuses to acknowledge.

            Tre-
            Kendall Kelly is plenty good to play WR, Saban would rather have his best athelete on Defense than offense. SEC mentality. Remember he even had Julio Jones work out with the DBs some in the spring.

            • Catch, I do not think you are far off and while I don’t speak for Joshua, I’m not sure that he would totally disagree. The only real uncertain points are first, whether it is only incoming potential greyshirts who are at risk or is it underperforming returning players as well and second, how directly Saban communicates the risk to his potential incoming players.

              Regarding the first issue, we have seen plenty of anecdotal evidence on this site from the Kentucky and Missouri basketball players to most recently the LSU quarterback that indicates that in college sports as a whole, existing players do occasionally lose their scholarships for no legitimate reason (I know that some feel that scholarships are one year deals and there is no such thing as an illegitimate reason to pull a scholarship. There is no moral argument to make to this crowd, so I will ignore them for now). If some of Saban’s voluminous medical redshirts, transfers and team rules violations prove to be a cut of an otherwise compliant student/athlete, it seems that you (and I hope others) appear to be allowing that this would be wrong (not in violation of current NCAA regulations, but just plain wrong).

              Regarding the second issue, a lot depends on disclosures and mutual obligations. We can compare this LOI transaction to other real life situations. If I buy a lottery ticket, I clearly understand that I have wagered little and only have some faint hope of realizing gain. On the other hand, if I sign a contract to purchase a house, I have put significant earnest money at risk and I expect that the seller will perform. If I get to closing and the seller informs me that he has sold the house to someone else and suggests that I can just rent another few months until he has another house ready, most would not defend the homebuilder. In college football, the student/athlete has made much more than a lottery ticket investment once he signs his LOI. He cannot get a scholarship at another school without receiving a release and in many cases, such as the LSU example from a couple of days ago, the kid has moved to campus and is working over the summer with the team before he receives the bad news. A large number of schools and conferences across the country already recognize the unfairness of this situation and refuse to sign more players than they have spots available. If Nick Saban wishes to continue to have a pool of extra players available, I would have no problem if he told them all to wait until August, but did not sign them to LOIs. Most schools have walk-ons (remember Rudy) and there is no rule against giving these walk-ons scholarships at some future date. If, as you suggest, Saban has a pool of potential greyshirts, why require them to sign away their options before the school is ready to commit to them?

              • You make some good points, but I would modify your home-buying analogy. Many home transactions have a contengency in it that the purchase stops if the buyer’s house doesn’t sell in time. In other words, I agree to buy your house, and we’ll close on Sept. 1st, but only if I am able to sell my house by then. I’m not one to say everything is perfect, but I’m not for further restrictions on scholarships, which is what Josh and his followers want to do. You can’t deny that Saban’s way ends up giving more kids scholarships, even if you allow Josh’s accusations that many are subsequently cut in following years. If we follow the B10 way, then fewer kids will even get that chance. If Saban can’t sign 27 kids, but only 20 in a given year, then there will be 7 kids out there without a chance to play for them. The rest of the argument is about entitlement – and I’m not a big fan of that.

                Sorry if I rambled a bit here, I’m heading out the door and kinda wrote as it came to me.

                • You are wrong. By following the Big 10 methodology of managing the rosters and giving out scholarships to guys who have been around for 4-5 years you are giving the scholarships to the right people – people who have EARNED IT. Your method in giving scholarships to guys with “potential” is bogus because this perceived potential is often times the result of some recruiting service ranking that doesn’t take character or academics into consideration (none of them do by the way), and therefore you are simply taking a risk on a borderline guy just because you think he can do something on the field, instead of giving it to a team player who has earned it through blood, sweat, and tears over the course of 4-5 years and who has proven he can take care of business academically.

                  It’s not about entitlement in the Big 10, it’s about giving the extra scholarships that are left over, should you happen to have 1 or 2 because you didn’t hedge your bets on academic eligibility or because you are not trying to gain a competitive advantage by stacking your roster with new recruits, to guys who have EARNED THEM. It has nothing to do with entitlement.

  17. Bama fan here… OK, I admit, Saban operates a business-like program where he utilizes rules to his advantage, including video-teleconferenced meetings with recruits as well as not renewing yearly scholarships when necessary. Getting a scholarship is a year-by-year PRIVILEGE, not a given. That being said, what’s your point?

    I don’t see why an Ohio State fan would care what the University of Alabama is doing as long as it abides by the rules. I dare say that if your coach implemented similiar policies that fell within the guidelines, your argument wouldn’t be nearly as loud as it is now.

    Again, what’s your point in spending all this time on another college program when you have a championship caliber program of your own that you could be spending this time supporting?

    • We are not just focused on one program, we are focused on the problem of oversigning as a whole for several reasons, all of which we have stated here on this site.

      • you just go out of your way to paint Bama in a bad light, including rumors that have no facts behind them and were found out to not be true.

  18. I’ll follow up my initial post by stating that in the “Introduction” area of your website, you touch on multiple schools that oversign. Namely, schools like Iowa State and Kansas State. But your major gripe is with Alabama and LSU (on a lesser scale) and the smaller schools aren’t your focus.

    A recent SEC power (LSU) and a current SEC power (Alabama) gets, by far, the majority of your focus and hours of examination. Can’t imagine your angst against the SEC.

    I’ve never seen this much dedication to another team’s current situation from a non-fan of that school. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I couldn’t care less how many players Ohio State, Michigan, USC, Slippery Rock signs each year. Enjoy your own school and quit being paranoid about what someone else is doing. By the way, where’s the URL for your OSU website?

    • First we never said that those two schools oversigned, in fact we investigated them and found that their numbers are higher in terms o players signed because they use a lot more judo players than most schools…we have explained that on this site. LSU and Alabama, among others, are focused on because they are the heaviest abusers.

  19. You have GOT to limit scholarships to 25 max per year.

    In the event you actually do have more openings then that, you must get a waiver BEFORE you get there.

    • You do realize that it is not against the rules in golf to talk in a golfer’s back swing, but it is generally accepted that everyone remains quite and allows the guy on the tee to take his swing. It’s called golf etiquette. It’s called sportsmanship. Sure, it’s not against the rules for another golfer to say something while a guy is swinging, but all the golfers have a gentleman’s agreement that they won’t do it.

      This is what we have with oversigning. It is generally not a problem amongst SEC coaches because almost all of them do it. Not so in the Big Ten. Sure you can say the Big Ten is trying to act pompous or holier than thou or using it as an excuse, but the fact of the matter is that the two conferences operate differently and it has a great affect on the product you see on the field.

      Do not take my analogy as saying that oversigning is as trivial as talking in someone’s back swing or that it is just a gentleman’s agreement – the practice of oversigning has been banned from the Big 10 for decades.

      • Your golf analogy is ok, but I prefer this one: in golf, if your ball comes to rest across a hazard marker, you have the option of taking a drop (with a penalty stroke added to your score). It is, however perfectly legal to play your ball as it lies if you choose. If one group of players decided this was wrong and agreed that the drop should be mandatory, should everyone else comply even though they don’t agree? Its fine with me if you don’t want to take full advantage of the rules, but you shouldn’t be trying to hamstring everyone else because you do.

        • What do they do at the Masters? Does everyone agree to handle those situations the same way or does each group within the Masters handle it differently?

          Also, when talking about golf we are talking about professional sports and we are talking about single individuals making decisions that only affect themselves. I get what you are saying but it doesn’t quite apply to the oversigning issue. We’re talking about kids not professional athletes.

  20. You have to explain things in the simplest terms to Bama fans. The point is, if you over-sign and you are counting on the attrition of some players and that attrition doesn’t occur for whatever reason, you have to move some guys that really don’t deserve to be moved. You have to violate your implied obligation to them. It’s called ethics. Oh, forgot, “ethics” is not a word at U of A. Maybe there isn’t any way to explain it to Tiders.

  21. Sure, it’s simple. The Tennessee situation has nothing to do with oversigning. Now if you want to ask me what I think about it I will tell you that it sucks and it is everything that is just as wrong as the oversigning issue – Bryce Brown is being held hostage because he signed a letter of intent – why are the schools not held hostage the same way. If this were directly related to oversigning then I would be all over it, but the minute I start posting about all the other things that I see that are wrong, especially if it pertains to an SEC team, then all of the sudden I am attacking the SEC for everything and anything. The site is called oversigning.com and that is what I try to focus on. What Tennessee is doing to him is pathetic.

    • This is an excellent point and a very valid adjunct issue that should be discussed. But you are right that it seems unlikely we will since it doesn’t serve the purposes of the site to do so.

      I will say once again that I respect what Josh is trying to do, but he hurts himself by slanting it into a hit piece. He gets the occasional “supporter” like Mario, who actually sounds as though he is making a concerted effort to address the “cause”, as it were, but for the most part he just gets Big Ten fans who are trying to pile on. I somehow doubt there is some NCAA exec up in Indy reading these threads and putting together a plan to address oversigning. It won’t get addressed until next July at the earliest no matter what. The SEC meetings have already taken place and there was no discussion on the matter.

    • if that was all you focused on, it would be one thing. You seem to go out of your way to paint a certain team in a bad light. You dont just present the facts, you include your commentary as if it is part of the story, you post about a poster on here, you post rumors that turned out not to be true, rumors that have nothing to do with oversigning. If that was all you did, some people on here might not look at it the way others do.

      • So basically you see that it is wrong, you just don’t like the way I present the material. I understand. I apologize if my added comments taint the topic of oversigning – I am not a professional writer – I’m just a guy who sees a problem and wants to try and do something about it.

        I think we can all agree that this is a problem and that it needs to be addressed. Some of you don’t like the way I present it, that’s fine. But you can’t deny that the word is getting out around the country and that this problem will be addressed. This site has had nearly 3 million hits in 5 months and has been linked to every major sports website and blog on the Internet. The reliable and professional journalists (guys at SI, ESPN, CBS, etc) all appear to be in agreement that something needs to be done.

        • It’s your lies that taint the topic, not your lack of writing talent. You simply make things up on a regular basis, and even when you’re called on it you won’t stop.

          For example, you said that Rod Woodson did not violate any Alabama team rules when you have no way of knowing what happened because it hasn’t been publicly disclosed. One minute you say Saban decided to get rid of Woodson in February when he oversigned and the next minute you say Saban didn’t make the decision to get rid of Woodson until yesterday when Blake Sims became eligible (even though Woodson’s departure was announced hours before the NCAA declared Sims eligible). You can’t even keep your lies straight. If you think something casts a person or program you don’t like in an unfavorable light and makes the story you want to tell better, you just make it up.

          You say in this piece that Nick Saban refers to the University of Alabama as an “organization” when it’s clear to anybody with a brain that he’s talking about his organization, the football program at the University of Alabama.

          You moralize and talk about ethics and the spirit of the rules, but you don’t exhibit any character yourself. You’re a bloody hypocrite. If you want to talk about integrity, show some yourself.

  22. There “might have been” an off-the-field incident recently involving her son, but she declined to elaborate……

    People want to see Saban kicking a guy off the team just because he’s out of scholarships, so they see it that way whenever somebody leaves.

    Woodson was viewed by fans as a potential starter in an already thin area of the defense. It would seem more like a cut scholarship if we dropped a linebacker or wide receiver.

  23. U STUPID IGNORANT SLUT – A SCHOLARSHIP IS NOT A 4 YR PASS AT ANYTHING GOES…
    ROD WOODSON OF BAMA WAS AN EARLY BAD APPLE…LEADER OF RING THAT SET OFF FIREWORKS INSIDE OF BUILDINGS….YOU DO NOT KNOW HIS CLASS ATTENDANCE RECORD EITHER…JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE A LOSER AND HAVE NO CONCEPT OF DISCIPLINE AND EXCELLENCE DOESN’T MEAN THE ALABAMA FOOTBALL PROGRAM HAS TO INCLUDE EVERYONE WHO GOT A SCHOLARSHIP WHEN THEY WERE 17 YRS OLD.SCHOLARSHIPS ARE I YR RENEWABLE TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT.

  24. AND BTW – ROD WOODSON WAS A GREAT FOOTBALL PLAYER AND DOING FINE IN THAT REGARDS – THAT WAS NOT THE ISSUE

    CUDOS TO SABAN FOR AXING WOODSON WHO WAS AT A POSITION OF NEED FOR BAMA (DEFENSE – SECONDARY) FOR PUTTING CHARACTER ABOVE WINS

  25. AND HOPEFULLY THIS IS A WAKE UP CALL FOR ROD WOODSON TO STEP IT UP WHEN HE GETS HIS SECOND CHANCE

  26. Alabama has become a “football factory” and sooner or later, they’re going to overstep their bounds again. Their rabid boosters and alumni are going to do the same thing that got them on probation in the first place. IT’s just a matter of time until they’re caught again. Other coaches in the SEC are already talking.

    • other coaches in the SEC are not talking. get over yourself.

      • Tre:

        See below. James and his buddy James2 were privy to these discussions. James was at the SEC media meetings in Hoover and overheard the other coaches’ discussions, while James2 sat in on the meeting with Terry Grant. Great access allowed to forum guys. It may just be unprecedented.

  27. This does not smell like “getting rid of under perform attrition”. There is no way that Rod Woodson wasn’t better than 8-10 other DBs on the team. Something else might have happened.

    Terry Grant was an under performer who was told “you will never see the field again. Do you want to be on the practice squad?”

    • Wow, James. Please tell us how it was you were invited to attend the meeting with Terry Grant. That’s really cool that you were allowed to be there so that you can now report to us what was said. Even putting it in quotation marks so that we know it was exactly what was said. Awesome.

  28. Character and Saban should not be used in the same sentence.

  29. let me know all the players of the teams in the big 10 who transfer out or get hurt
    this happens everywhere

  30. where is the list

  31. Joshua,
    Ok, for starters this oversigning thing already got addressed 3 years ago, that was when the 25 LOI rule was put into place. I guessed you missed that somewhere. Also I dont think you are a yankee at all, I believe you live right here in the south, in fact you are probably a skinny bug eyed kid with low selfconfidence that tried to walk on at Bama and got laughed off the field and still hold a grudge against Coach Saban. Maybe you should talk to Tressel about oversigning a little, maybe then you guys would’nt be stuck with a complete wash up like Pryor, tell me again what exactly has he accomplished ? Anyway I’m sure this wont get published, simply because I’ve called you on what you are, sorry its just my opinion. I have to admit when I first started reading your stuff I was really interested, but then you started twisting the facts and then just flat out being untruthful about Coach Saban. Maybe you would have better luck speaking out against inapropiate agent contact or maybe that would hit too close to home for you, but thats the real problem college football is faced with. Not a subject that was addressed and a rule put inplace for 3 years ago. It wasnt even Coach Saban that got that rule put in place. Maybe I was wrong, maybe you are a yankee, maybe they laughed you off the field at Michigan State while Saban was there. Either way you should really go after a real problem that faces college football or you could just do like the rest of us and go get a real job, stop sitting in front of the computer naked all day, you’ll ruin your eyes son. No hard feelings I hope, I wasnt mad at you until you started spitting lie’s.

    • I’ll ignore the personal attacks, not worth responding. You are wrong, however, about oversigning being addressed. It was not addressed; signing and placing was slightly addressed but if you do your math 25 x 4 = 100 which is greater than 85. In order to address oversigning teh NCAA will have to put something in place that allows the number of signees to fluctuate according to the number of openings on signing day. Leaving the number at a fixed number will not solve the problem unless that number is 21.25 (85/4) or lower which A.) is impossible and B.) still won’t work because the number of 5th seniors from team to team will fluctuate. The only thing you proved with your post is that you don’t know understand oversigning. Thanks for reading though.

  32. Btw, the Big Ten couldt oversign if they wanted too, I mean really who wants to go to school at a big ten school these days. I admit Ohio St. USED to have alot of good players tio come through there, but whens the last time that happened ? Thats what all this is about, mad, flaming Ohio St. fans. I mean really people the Big Ten has been irrelenant for atleast 10 years, if not 15. Go ahead get mad, flame about the SEC, its not going to help, I mean really you think you are going to get inside the NCAA heads, you knoe the NCAA has a new president noe right ? You know who he’s been life long friends with, you dont….hmm lets see he happens to be the one you center all your flames around on here, good luck with that. Joshua the only help for you would be to seek professional help, you obviously have some issue’s with lying.

  33. Joshua,
    Just a little warning, I would watch what I say about some of these student-athletes, especially when it comes to reasons for transfer, reasons for being kicked off a team, and alot of other stuff that you falsly post on your site, if you get one of your so called facts wrong you could be sued by the school the athlete and the NCAA, I would suggest that you get your facts right, which from what I’ve read you have a problem with that.

  34. The solution is that the program needs to be accountable for all of the players its signs for four years. Give the schools 95 or 100 scholarships, but when a player leaves or gets run off after a year or two, that scholarship doesn’t become available again until after what would have been that player’s fourth year in the program.

    This perfectly aligns the incentives of the coach and the player. The coach will benefit by having every signed recruit keep the grades to remain eligible and there is no incentive to force players out.

    • So what happens if a player gets a career ending injury, breaks team rules, flunks out of school, gets arrested? What happens if a player decides to go NFL after his junior year? What happens to his scholarship?

  35. Alabama fans: If Saban isn’t doing anything wrong here, why are you guys worried enough to visit this site?

  36. Joshua,

    Bill King of Rivals just asked this question and I want you to answer this in regards to Ohio State. After Seantrel Henderson declined to go to USC, what if he had chosen to go to Ohio State with no visible scholarship available? Would Tressel have turned him away or found a way to get him a scholarship? I think the ENTIRE nation already knows that answer.

    • That is simple to answer, if there was an open scholarship when Henderson approached osu he would have gotten it, but if there was not one available then no he wouldn’t. Tressel left the door open for him all the way past signing day, in fact there is still a spot for him now. Tressel has been very public about not going over the limit, I seriously doubt he would want to have to eat his words.

      • Dick LeBeau. former Buckeye great, Steeler’s defensive coordinator, NFL HOF inductee:

        “People ask me if I ever talk about when I played to my players. You just saw an example of how they have to suffer through that most every day. They ask me about what coach did you borrow the most from. I had too many great ones. When I was at Ohio State, I played for Woody Hayes, the great Woody Hayes. I still learn something almost daily from the current head coach of the Ohio State University, Jim Tressel. Coach Tressel is a textbook on how to conduct yourself at a major college level with integrity.”

    • The easiest way to justify your bad behavior is to tarnish someone else. You picked the coach with the best record on this issue to attack with a suppose/if situation. How could you predict how Tressel would have reacted. You KNOW how Saban would have reacted if given an opportunity.

      This brings up next years oversigning, with 9 availble and 28 more on the way. This practice helps in more than just the actual team. If a player is good enough to sign with Ala. he probablely could play at Auburn or Georgia. By keeping these guys away from other program it helps Alabama. Wasting a year of a players elgibility spoils him for other Div. 1 programs.What if Star Jackson had gone to Penn State. That might have changed the upcoming season dramatically.

      • If Star Jackson had went to Penn State then he would’nt even be playing this year, so it wouldnt change this season any, obviously you dont know the NCAA rules to good. If a player transfers from one FBS school to another FBS school then that player must sit out a year, however if a player transfers from an FBS school to a FCS school then he can play immediatly. Thats why he transfered to Georgia State.

  37. Enjoy his recruiting “tactics” while you can, guy’s going to bolt on you as soon as NFL opens up again.

  38. Evil Genius. We love him.

  39. You people have serious issues, GET A JOB !!!!!

  40. this sounds like typical big ten crying. Bama’s playing within the rules. It sounds like a typical pre-excuse for when Bama beats Ohio State, then again, I don’t see Ohio State getting into the Championship game, when they drop a late one at Iowa.

    When Clarett had to leave the team, was he pushed out or was it because of his gun possession?

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