Up to 20 + 2
Alabama landed verbal committment #20 picking up former University of Tennessee and All-SEC OL Aaron Douglas on waivers from JUCO today. That makes 20 verbal commitments plus the 2 kids that were greyshirted last year and assured of spots in this year's recruiting class.
Anyone care to explain where all the scholarships are going to come from given that Alabama has a senior class of roughly 8 scholarship players and are looking at a max of 4 juniors jumping to the league early?
Alabama's recruiting class is ranked #2 in the country on Rivals.com, a ranking that no doubt they use in recruiting "hey, come be a part of the #2 class in the country - with you we could make it the #1 class." But one has to question where Alabama's class would be ranked if they were recruiting within their budget and only had 8-12 commitments with very few if no additional openings? Would they be ranked #2 in the country and selling that to prospects? Doubt it. But since they have the NCAA's and the SEC's blessing to accept way more signatures than they project having room for and given that they get an extra 6 months to figure out which scholarships they don't want to renew or who they are going to put on medical hardship, they have the luxury of taking way more than they have room for and taking advantage of the selling point having the #2 recruiting class in the country affords you.
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December 16th, 2010 - 19:39
No wonder we’re already getting the usual “anonymous sources” floating rumors about players “considering their options.”
Good old Alabama.
December 16th, 2010 - 20:56
texas_dawg, glad you have enough time to worry about Bama, cause Georgia has it all figured out…right.
ex-AD who loves red panties
who’s your strength and conditioning coach
maybe you guys should try black outs again, oh wait, that didn’t worth with your best offensive firepower.
smart turned you down.
muschamp going to the enemy
south carolina winning the east.
good old losers…
December 16th, 2010 - 21:26
Damon Evans was fired. Rightfully so. Extremely unethical behavior gets you fired at UGA. Sorry to see that it is supported at Alabama.
As to the rest of your list? Yawn. Have all the football wins you want. I’d rather have a university that isn’t a complete 1960s Deep South joke like the SEC West schools are.
December 20th, 2010 - 13:57
so it has to be “extreme” before you get fired at GA…nice. seriously, Georgia sucks and you know it.
December 31st, 2010 - 22:48
boy SEC East has showed up at the bowls…who’s the joke again.
0-3 so far, ouch.
January 1st, 2011 - 15:41
49-7, damn
December 16th, 2010 - 21:46
“Anyone care to explain where all the scholarships are going to come from given that Alabama has a senior class of roughly 8 scholarship players and are looking at a max of 4 juniors jumping to the league early?”
I’ve explained it before, but I’ll explain it again. Saban knows from 10+ years of head coaching experience the approximate number of transfers to expect each off-season. If there are fewer transfers than he budgeted for, then some recruits greyshirt, the possibility of which was discussed with them beforehand. It’s not rocket science nor is it some sinster ploy.
December 17th, 2010 - 10:44
Agreed. It’s why he’s such a great coach. He has the unique and uncanny ability to predict yearly the exact number of players who will transfer, grayshirt or get a medical redishirt – even as those numbers come in far above the average for other programs in college football. It’s as if he’s Dr. House/Dr. Phil/Miss Cleo all rolled into one.
Roll tide! (And please, don’t any of you cynics even think about suggesting that many of the signed Alabama recruits who utter those words will actually be getting rolled by the Saban “Tide” in the next couple of years.)
December 17th, 2010 - 13:35
“Agreed. It’s why he’s such a great coach. He has the unique and uncanny ability to predict yearly the exact number of players who will transfer, grayshirt or get a medical redishirt – even as those numbers come in far above the average for other programs in college football.”
Ha. Exactly. Well done.
December 17th, 2010 - 17:42
I appreciate your skepticism, but you should really work on your reading comprehension. Saban doesn’t have to “predict yearly the exact number” of anything because the number of greyshirts is flexible.
December 18th, 2010 - 13:15
“Approximate” vs “exact” is a distinction without a difference. The indisputable point is the numbers work out with precision each year because the Renaissance Man diagnoses discontentment in players and (Alabama) career-ending injuries according to what it takes to shoehorn his recruiting class in each year.
You’ve parsed my post without effect here, though it’s understood that advancing the argument you are does limit your ability to argue just the unspun facts which speak for themselves.
December 18th, 2010 - 15:39
And again you’ve danced around my point without actually addressing it. The numbers work out with precision every year because THE NUMBER OF GRAYSHIRTS IS FLEXIBLE. If fewer players opt to transfer, then there are more grayshirts. If more players opt to transfer, then there are fewer grayshirts. If more players don’t qualify academically, then there are fewer grayshirts. If fewer players don’t qualify, then there are more grayshirts.
Alabama was all set to grayshirt 3 players as fall practice started this year. At the last minute, the NCAA clearinghouse decided not to recognize one class taken by a signee and ruled him ineligible to join the team. So, one of the planned grayshirts joined the team in his place and only 2 players grayshirted. See how that works? While it is precise, no clairvoyance is required.
December 18th, 2010 - 19:40
[Corrected posted for formatting errors]
One thing you can trust is that I will NEVER dance around ANY substantiated point you can make in support of the ethical use of oversigning, or any substantiated point you can make that shows Alabama, Nick Saban and the SEC don’t practice it.
However, were I ever to “dance around” a point it would look something like this:
“If fewer players OPT to transfer…”
“If more players OPT to transfer…” (all emphasis mine)
This is a dance step that could land you a trophy on “Dancing With the Stars”. To wit, players lacking the OPPORTUNITY to decide how much longer their careers will last at Alabama is the crux of this entire matter, yet you gloss over it as if the issue doesn’t even exist.
How about this: if more players opted to play out their careers at Alabama then this site wouldn’t exist and you and I wouldn’t be having this discussion, because that would mean they actually have a choice in the matter. But instead we have this:
“Three Alabama players who’ve taken these exemptions [medical scholarships] say they believe the team uses the practice as a way to clear spots for better players by cutting players it no longer wants”
The Wall Street Journal isn’t publishing this assertion because Alabama players have options – they’re doing it because the players don’t get to “opt” to stay.
And of course the number of grayshirts is flexible – because it HAS to be. It’s a simple matter of Saban deciding there are fewer players he’s given up on that year – and hence fewer players “opting” to transfer or take a medical scholarship – and thus the need to expand the grayshirt number. See how that works? No clairvoyance required.
BTW, I’ll swing that “reading comprehension” remark from your earlier reply right back at you, since you obviously missed that my earlier Miss Cleo reference was the height of sarcasm – in line with the entire post – and that there was never a suggestion that Saban actually needed to be clairvoyant in order to manage his numbers.
I’ll venture a guess that a 3rd grader could work out the following math word problem:
Coach Nick has 28 new players arriving by August, but can’t fit them all in if only 12 will use up their eligibility or go pro. How many combined players will coincidentally need to become unhappy and transfer, get very, very badly hurt to end their playing careers, or wait to enroll after the season when there’s more room?
I’m sure the 3rd graders would get this right every time.
And please don’t “dance” with the numbers, because the point I’ve made doesn’t depend on the accuracy of the to-date numbers in this instance.
December 18th, 2010 - 20:54
You can feign offense all you want, but anyone reading these posts will clearly recognize that you were dancing around my point about grayshirts in your first two posts.
Now, I agree that the crux of the matter is, in fact, whether transfers and medicals are forced to leave the team or free to make their own choices. The Wall Street Journal, as you point out, has now written two articles in which they have taken the position that players are forced to leave. In an effort to support their position, they’ve obviously attempted to track down and interview former Alabama players so that they can print their personal stories about being heartlessly kicked to the curb. In the two articles, they interviewed 6 former players. What did they have to say?
“Mr. Lawrence said he decided to transfer from Alabama because he didn’t think he would get to play”
“Mr. Hall, who had played in 36 games at Alabama, said while he had been suspended three times for violating team rules in the past, it was his decision to transfer—and Mr. Saban had tried to talk him out of it.”
“Mr. Preyear also said he chose to leave over concerns about playing time”
“Charles Hoke, a former Alabama offensive lineman who took a medical scholarship in 2008 because of a shoulder problem, said the choice was left entirely up to him”
“Mr. Kirschman said the decision to take the medical scholarship was ultimately his”
“Mr. Griffin said he doesn’t contest the results of the physical and said it was “basically my decision” to forgo the rest of his playing career”
These are the WSJ’s whistle blowers? My reading comprehension must be substandard because I totally missed the parts of the articles where they claimed to have been cut from the team. I can only imagine the disappointment experienced by the WSJ writers when player after player stated that he chose to leave the team. They put their slant on it and ran the articles anyway, but there’s just no bite to the articles since all the players they interviewed contradicted the basic premise of the authors. Probably why the articles never produced any dialogue outside of this web site.
“How many combined players will coincidentally need to become unhappy and transfer, get very, very badly hurt to end their playing careers, or wait to enroll after the season when there’s more room?”
The answer is 16 minus the number of players who don’t qualify academically. As I stated, Saban knows from 10+ years of head coaching experience the approximate number of transfers to expect each off-season. If there are fewer transfers than he budgeted for, then some recruits grayshirt, the possibility of which was discussed with them beforehand. Whereas, you believe that players are just cut from the roster. So, whose version of events are supported by the accounts of former players? I’m pretty sure a 3rd grader could answer that question as well.
December 19th, 2010 - 16:40
No offense feigned at all, I’m not sure what you’re talking about there.
Anyway, judging by your command of prose you appear to be a reasonably intelligent person. But then, it puzzles me as to why you’d go quote fishing within two articles – yet manage to hook the equivalent of just fish scales. Any fishing I’ve ever done has resulted in hooking the entire fish – GUTS and all.
Here’s an example in the single author quote about Chuck Kirschman you offered, which says: “the decision to take the medical scholarship was ultimately his.” Fish scales.
Here’s the rest of the fish, guts and all:
“‘I’m still kind of bitter,’ said former Alabama linebacker Chuck Kirschman, who took a medical scholarship last year. Mr. Kirschman said Mr. Saban encouraged him to accept the scholarship because of a back problem that he believes he could have played through. ‘It’s a business,’ Mr. Kirschman said. ‘College football is all about politics. And this is a loophole in the system.‘ (Emphasis mine.)
Plain talk. The kid knows how his body feels better than anyone – and he still wanted to be on the field. And he knows when he’s being pushed out to make room for another recruit.
So why would he utter those words about the decision to take the medical scholarship ultimately being his? Let’s listen to his words:
Free grad school is a powerful incentive, no doubt.
But then Kirschman added, “that he decided to do it to open up a scholarship for the good of the team. But he said he felt he was pressured. ‘It was pushed,’ he said. ‘It was instigated for several players.’”
Tsk, tsk! Now who put it in this kid’s head – and that of the other players he speaks of – that by taking the medical scholarship he’d be opening up a spot for the good of the team – for a signed recruit who doesn’t yet have a scholarship to award? Perhaps, the man who came bearing a “Dear John” letter and a basket of lovely parting gifts?
Sure the kid ultimately made the decision – if taking the only choice available to him can actually be called “deciding”.
A reasonable man would recognize that once a player is signaled that he’s no longer wanted, that it’s impossible for him to stay with the team. Understanding organizational dynamics and politics (remember the “politics” Chuck Kirshman spoke of – the “business”?) a reasonable man knows how easily and quickly it would be made difficult for himself to remain for any length of time in some place that he’s not wanted. So of course the player will do the only thing he can do – cave, and “decide” to take a medical scholarship and other perks, or transfer.
Let’s look at another example of your “fishing” technique. Again you quote the author saying “Mr. Preyear also said he chose to leave over concerns about playing time.” But this isn’t really fishing at all – but rather it’s as if you went fishing only to end up pulling a rabbit out of a hat instead.
To wit, the inclusion of Mr. Preyear in the Wall Street Journal isn’t even about the issue of being forced out – that was the purpose of the first article printed September 24, 2010, titled Alabama’s Unhappy Castoffs
Ex-Players Say Coach Nick Saban Pressured Them to Take Medical Scholarships; a ‘Bitter’ Outcome. The Preyear quote is from the second article printed November 25, 2010 and titled Former Players Say Saban Twisted the Truth – Alabama’s Football Coach Said Four Athletes Were Let Go for Breaking Team Rules—Three of Them Say That’s Not True. It’s about Nick Saban being a liar!
Sleight of hand. Rabbit out of a hat.
Jermaine Preyear is calling Nick Saban a liar for saying:
So of course, in order to set the record straight, Preyear responds that “he chose to leave over concerns about playing time.” But he then went on to add “I don’t know any rules I could have broken.” Additionally, the author writes that “a person familiar with the matter said the school has no evidence to show that Mr. Lawrence or Mr. Preyear had ever violated team policies.” The article also says Preyear’s current coach at Alabama State confirms Preyear’s “account that he wasn’t dismissed by Alabama for rules violations but had asked to transfer. ”
You’ve performed this same sleight of hand trick with the Alonzo Lawrence quote you used. Again, he doesn’t even appear in the first Wall Street Journal article about players being forced out, but only in the second article which shows that Nick Saban is a liar in defaming these players.
As for the Mr. Griffin quote, you misused that exactly as you did the Kirschman quote, fishing for fish but coming up with fish scales. To wit, you wrote:
“Mr. Griffin said he doesn’t contest the results of the physical and said it was ‘basically my decision’ to forgo the rest of his playing career.” Fish scales.
Here’s the rest of the fish, guts and all:
(Emphasis and bracketed material are mine.)
Plain talk. The kid knows how his body feels better than anyone – and he still wanted to be on the field. And he knows when he’s being pushed out to make room for another recruit.
What’s more, it’s clear Saban showed up with both another “Dear John” letter, while bearing a basket of parting gifts. Same as with Kirschman there were perks to placate the kid. And just as with Kirschman the kid somehow has it in his head that he’s clearing room for a new recruit.
It’s amazing to me how both both Kirshman and Griffin still maintain that they believe they could’ve played. This is the first I’ve seen of this in a case – two cases! – of medical scholarships being issued. You’d think a player would best know his physical limitations and thus be on board with the decision to not compete if that were truly impossible.
At least in the case of the Charles Hoke quote it appears the fish actually jumped into the boat for you, since the story appears to be as straightforward as a medical scholarship situation that occurs at any school. Clearly Alabama can have a legitimate case as well. But then, as with too many things at Alabama, it’s overdone to the level of abuse.
Still, I said previously that it puzzles me why a person who appears to be reasonably intelligent would mischaracterize and misuse those quotes as you have, but really it’s clear why you did: it’s all you have. Worse, those cherry-picked player quotes you offered represent your argument in as good a state as it will ever be – which to put it plainly, is quite weak.
Worse still, the whole of the situation is a powder keg, with more powder continually being added. It’s the unavoidable by-product of oversigning. These are human beings’ lives Alabama is screwing with. As the pace quickens in the approach to fall camp other players will need to be jettisoned. And with the media more willing to listen – particularly should the sudden resurgence under Saban of the once moribund Alabama program continue, well, at a minimum the media will want to know what makes it all possible.
What they’ll find is what makes me confident the facts will never align to serve your obfuscatory purposes.
It’s why, as I stated in a previous post, one thing you can trust is that I will NEVER dance around ANY substantiated point you can make in support of the ethical use of oversigning, or any substantiated point you can make that shows Alabama, Nick Saban and the SEC don’t practice it.
As for your claim the articles “never produced any dialogue outside of this web site” – the one place you need to be concerned about having dialogue on this issue is the one place you wouldn’t hear about until they wanted you to – the NCAA.
Surely, if the SEC could itself see the massive abuse in oversigning, and make a first move toward curbing it, no doubt the less biased NCAA can examine the available evidence – including those articles – and make further moves as they see is warranted. Don’t relax just yet…
December 19th, 2010 - 16:50
Boom. Roasted.
December 19th, 2010 - 20:12
Keep dreaming
December 19th, 2010 - 19:43
I’m sorry, buy I couldn’t help but smile the whole time I was reading your post. As organized, and well thought out as it was, all the “sleight of hand” comments and fishing metaphors? It was as if you thought you caught me red-handed in something. Both of those WSJ articles have been discussed in detail on this blog. I “quote fished” from the articles to supporte my arguement just as you had done. In your previous post, you chose a portion of the WSJ article that supported your point of view. Did you also include the portions that supported my view (i.e. that all three players stated that it was their decision to take the medical scholarship)? No, nor would I have expected you to even though it was relevant to the debate we were having. Congrats on the repeated use of a fishing metaphor though; very clever.
Enough about that, on to the actual discussion. For the sake of brevity, I’ll distill your point to the following: Saban cuts players to get down to the 85 scholly limit. But do you know what being cut actually is? It’s being told you’re no longer a part of the team. It’s being told that your scholarship is not being renewed (a la Chris Garrett). A player feeling somewhat pressured does not constitiute being cut. A player wanting to make room on the roster for younger players does not constitute being cut. Even a player feeling that he is “not wanted”, as you put it, does not constitute being cut. In all three of these scenarios, we’re looking at a conscious decision by the player to leave the team. Just like when a player chooses to leave the team in hopes of getting more playing time. It’s the player’s decision. And the NCAA can’t legislate players feeling wanted anymore than they can legislate each player getting the amount of playing time that he feels he deserves.
For the sake of arguement, let’s assume that everything that Kirshman claims is true. He was told by the medical staff that he will not be cleared to play because of a back injury. Kirshman, however, felt he could still play. He was encouraged by the coaches to take the advice of the medical staff and take a medical scholarship, and it was even mentioned to him that it would open up a sholarship for another player, thus benefiting the team as well as the recipient of the scholly. Ok…where’s the crime here again? Should the coaches have told him to disregard the advice of the medical staff and put his life-long health in jeopardy for the chance to play in a couple of football games? I guess they could’ve done that if they wanted to jeopardize a young man’s health and open themselves up to a potential lawsuit. I can see their defense now, “But, your honor, Mr. Kirshman said he thought he could play through it”.
If Kirshman felt like he was physically capable of playing, he had two options:
1. Stay on Alabama’s team knowing that he’s not going to play or even practice because Alabama’s coaches are not going to go against the advice of the medical staff
2. Transfer to another school and hope that the medical staff there clears him to play
Despite claiming that he felt physically capable of playing, he chose neither of these options and instead chose to take the medical scholarship for the betterment of his team. I applaud him on his choice but would not have criticized him for choosing either of the other two options. His life, his choice. I wish him nothing but the best.
Finally, I certainly don’t fear the NCAA discussing this issue. Dialogue on any issue is not a bad thing. If the NCAA feels that changes need to be made, then they will make them. But even if the NCAA adopts the Big Ten’s policy on oversigning, there will be nothing to stop the types of abuses you allege are going on now. Let’s say Jim Tressel has a QB (Antonio Henton) with 3 years of elgibility left, but Tressel knows that with a more talented QB recruit (Terrelle Pryor) coming in that the first QB will never contribute. It is in Tressel’s best interest to encourage the first QB to transfer somewhere he can get more playing time since it frees up a scholly in the next signing class for Ohio State. I don’t know if this is what happened, but I do know that it would be in Tressel’s best interest, and furthermore, it would not be a violation of any NCAA rules. Food for thought.
December 19th, 2010 - 21:25
This is a pretty thin response here, Vesper – though I understand it’s wholly unavoidable once the supporting “facts” themselves run thin.
I still maintain you appear to be intelligent to the level that if you allowed reason to take it’s proper place you’d not work so hard and fruitlessly to offer up what clearly amounts to specious discourse.
This is the appearance of your latest Kirschman discussion in which you suggest he had two choices, where in fact, one of the options never existed.
While Kirschman could’ve transferred, there was no way he was staying on the field for Alabama. That’s a false choice. The squeeze was on and that scholarship already had some recruit’s name on it.
The real choice was either accept the perks – most particularly the free graduate degree – or transfer out to finish up his playing career elsewhere. It’s clear that Kirschman valued the perks more than he did finishing out his playing career elsewhere.
Of course, your whole “choice” scenario is in the realm of fantasy to begin with according to the very words of the players, especially Preyear, who made it clear it was Saban raising the “possibility” of a medical scholarship – and not the doctors insisting on it. Read through that part again.
Next, you’re using a false equivalence in comparing how I used a single quote to summarize the essence of what a group of players was saying – the exact summary of what the author who interviewed them concluded, because it was his quote I used – to how you deliberately tried to take a single quote from each player and make points about something the players weren’t even talking about when they said the quotes.
You used Preyear’s quote that “he chose to leave over concerns about playing time” to wrongly suggest that the quote absolved Nick Saban from blame for forcing Preyear out of Alabama when that wasn’t even the issue. Clearly Preyear was saying he left on his own but Nick Saban lied about that. I’m not even sure why you bothered to deny being caught red-handed in that, since clearly you were.
Further, it’s not the act of arguing that legitimizes what you say, but indeed, it’s the facts you can muster in support of your case. Which brings me to your discussion of the “real” meaning of what it is to be cut from the Alabama team. Seriously? I don’t even think you truly buy that one. Surely there’s a small voice in your head that was saying “I don’t know, V….this one’s kinda thin” as you were typing that.
Last, your fantasy scenario in which Jim Tressel encourages a QB to transfer, with a super QB recruit on the way, because it would be in “Tressel’s best interest” is entirely misinformed. It suffers badly because to those who are familiar with Jim Tressel, it’s abundantly clear that what’s in his best interest is to remain true to his beliefs and principles which is the selling point that hooks recruits and their families to go on board with him. But feel free to revisit that scenario at the first mention in the Wall Street Journal of a Tressel player saying he was forced out due to a scholarship squeeze.
And don’t look now, but I suspect some folks at ESPN’s Outside the Lines were also discussing those Wall Street Journal pieces and it’s highly likely we’ll hear something about Alabama soon enough. Your great fear should be if they DON’T discuss the WSJ articles, because it would mean they’ve found an abundance of new material…
December 17th, 2010 - 13:34
“Saban knows from 10+ years of head coaching experience the approximate number of transfers to expect each off-season.”
Hilarious.
December 17th, 2010 - 17:44
Richt should try the same method to account for the number of UGA players kicked off the team every year due to arrests. I’d put the number at, say, 4 or 5 a year. Is that about right?
December 17th, 2010 - 21:47
Not even close, actually.
But anyway, college kids get in trouble. Behave badly enough at Georgia, and you will be kicked off the team. Here once again, bad behavior is met with punishment by the school and program.
At Alabama, the extremely unethical behavior that is oversigning is endorsed all the way up to the highest levels. Very big difference there.
If there was nothing wrong with oversigning, all schools would do it. Instead, very few schools do it. And, not coincidentally, almost all of them are in the impoverished states of the SEC West.
December 17th, 2010 - 23:28
“If there was nothing wrong with oversigning, all schools would do it.”
Wow. Obviously you’ve never studied logic. Using that logic, then Ohio State must be wrong for awarding selected walk-on”s with scholarships. Vanderbilt and Stanford must be wrong for implementing more stringent academic requirements for admission. And Georgia must be wrong for…having so many players arrested?
Tell me, why do you think that Georgia has more arrests than other schools? Is it the type of players they recruit or is it the environment they are exposed to in the Georgia football program? Given the recent unethical behavior of the AD, I wouldn’t be surprised if criminal behavior is “endorsed all the way up to the highest levels”.
I know I would be embarrassed by it if I were a Georgia alum. Talk about a serious stain on Georgia’s reputation! Not that the state has the best reputation in the first place thanks to the well-publicized crime problem in Atlanta. I just hope that everytime the rest of the country reads about a Georgia player (or Athletic Director) getting arrested, they don’t lump all the other southeastern schools in with Georgia.
At this point, I considered adding the element of race to this post in an attempt to really inspire outrage for my cause. However, the simple fact that the majority of UGA’s football players are black, doesn’t make race relevant to this discussion. And anyone who uses something as serious as racial prejudice as a cheap tactic in an attempt to strengthen their arguement, well, I just hope that a person like that will one day grow up enough to realize the shamelessness of such an act of duplicity.
January 5th, 2011 - 22:08
I guess you could call him “Karnack” Saban. The man can see the future. Wonder how many of those “transfers” will be told that their scholarship won’t be renewed if they stay?
BTW, the number is now 21+2 and there are still as many as 4 more guys expected to commit.
January 6th, 2011 - 00:11
Where are you getting 23, I am confused. According to ESPN with the addition of X Dickson and even with Hart who is commiting Saturday but is already listed as a commitment we have 22. So not sure how you add up numbers. Also you can now subtract one from the list since S Brown has left HS and entered JUCO because he would not qualify.
December 17th, 2010 - 08:05
Not to mention Alabama also welcomes convicted sex offenders onto their team with a scholarship offer…SEC West = no integrity.
December 18th, 2010 - 00:56
That was Tennessee that signed the rapist.
December 18th, 2010 - 10:21
If you’re talking about Zach Mettenberger, while I did not agree with Alabama’s decision to offer him a scholarship, he does have offers from Big 12, Pac 10, and Big East schools. So, it’s hardly just the SEC West.
December 17th, 2010 - 09:43
Get ready, we are signing at least five more. Like saban says every year” he’ll balance the check book” he always does it in a fair way, so I don’t have a problem with it one bit.
December 19th, 2010 - 00:41
That is because you actually believe he “balances the check book” in a fair and ethical way.
December 17th, 2010 - 13:36
Looks like LSU is going have to start kicking even more kids out of school as well:
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5927673
December 17th, 2010 - 17:31
DeepSthBoy, you always say the site is dead, but you keep coming back to post. This will ultimately change and I’m sure you’ll believe it coincidence the falling of the might SEC junior college team’s (in terms of academic standards for football players) will fall far once this practice is put to an end.
The question then will be what do you people who sit in the front yard in counches and blocks on cinder blocks going to do with your lives then? Durghhhh….I’m a fooooooootttttbaaaalllll pwayer…..duuurrrrghhh
SEC= Stupid, ignorant, racist, rednecks
December 20th, 2010 - 14:34
Try to re-read you own post, then tell us who comes across as ignorant.
December 17th, 2010 - 22:00
Funny. Not Josh, but as an SEC grad and Southerner who hates the South’s long and extremely sad history of anti-black social injustice, I would bet I hate oversigning and what it involves a whole lot more than he does. After all, as you’ve noted many times here, Cletus, he’s not from around these parts.
And diminishing returns?
Ha. Keep dreaming.
Oversigning is getting an increasing amount of attention. And within the past few months, the University of Alabama has once again seen a serious stain on its reputation, with a major, widely respected newspaper revealing that the school is once again engaged in extremely unethical behavior that often targets poor African-Americans.
I know you couldn’t care less about such things as integrity and reputation as long as you can sit at home and get drunk and watch some football team win games, but there are a quite a few people who do care about such things. And if the University of Alabama wants to continue to push this fraud in pursuit of football wins, then it will continue to see more and more sites like this and articles like those from the Wall Street Journal. And the name will increasingly be, once again, tied to the disgusting behaviors that the word “Alabama” has for so long been synonymous with in the minds of so many Americans and others around the world.
Personally, I find it simply astonishing and just plain sad that the sons and daughters of George Wallace, Bull Connor, and their enablers would not do everything possible to fight any possible appearance of their communities and state regressing back in that direction. But here we are.
December 18th, 2010 - 02:54
My reply to Mr. Oklahoma#2 is meant for you as well. Sorry your team sucks and you resort to this as a means to tear down another school because they can’t win.
December 18th, 2010 - 09:42
John, you have overused the “crack pipe, son” for far too long and on multiple sites. You and your ilk on here repeatedly respond to the criticism of over signing by tying it to where Josh is from, where he went to school, Jim Tressel red-shirting two players and that it is not against the “rules” It is not a stretch at all to tie what Saban is doing at present day ‘Bama to it’s legacy of being the last team to integrate the football program and the school where a defiant George Wallace stood defying the Supreme Court. You love to bring up Woody Hayes but Woody recruited black players and would have stood up to the Gov. of Ohio and told him to shove it unlike Bryant who cow-towed to Jim Crowe. That is until he got his ass kicked at home by USC and Sam Cunningham. I will take Woody losing his shit in a bowl game to willful segregation that lasted until 1970. Over signing is as vile as segregation. That you support it and don’t see how it is connected to the hideous legacy of ‘Bama, says plenty about you.
December 18th, 2010 - 10:05
A history lesson: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9401E6DA123AF93BA25754C0A9629C8B63
December 19th, 2010 - 00:50
Another version of history:http://espn.go.com/page2/s/halberstam/021220.html
December 19th, 2010 - 21:44
“But, ultimately, he did not take on George Wallace when he should have … at least, not back when it really mattered.”
Sad.
December 19th, 2010 - 21:42
“That you support it and don’t see how it is connected to the hideous legacy of ‘Bama, says plenty about you.”
Yep.
People watch the old films from Selma and Birmingham and wonder how in the world it could have happened. Not so much wonder at how some people could have been mean and behaving hideously… but how so many others could have sat silently by, or even defended such behavior, so as to allow such horrors to continue.
Oversigning is very clearly an extremely unethical practice that severely damages the lives of many of its victims, many of whom are often African-American and socially marginalized.
John’s parents and grandparents had their reasons for downplaying or excusing their neighbors’ water cannons. Now John has his for excusing his neighbors preying on underprivileged black kids.
“Alabama.” Still has the same old ring to it sadly.
December 19th, 2010 - 23:15
Dude, really?
As I tried explaining in another post without calling you out personally, there are many very serious and very legitimate issues involving race in this country. And when you play that card in order to try to inspire outrage for one of your pet issues in which race isn’t even a factor, you cause people to become desensitized to the legitimate issues involving race. You should be ashamed of using such a tactic to score points in an arguement, and if you really cared about racial equality as much as you claim, then you would stop. Seriously, take a few minutes to think about it.
December 20th, 2010 - 14:32
Wow, though you have previously made some decent arguments, this may well be the most ignorant drivel I’ve seen on this site. Comparing oversigning “victims” to the civil rights struggles of the 60′s is not only insane, it is downright disrespectful to the likes of Rosa Parks and others who actively lived through true hate. If you really think that being given several years of a free education at a top center of learning, and playing a game in front of 100+ thousand cheering fans is anywhere near the civil unrest that occured in our past then I doubt you have a workable grasp on reality. Even if the worst accusations on this site were true – that players are routinely kicked to the curb – it still wouldn’t come close to the image you have tried to paint. You should be ashamed of this post.
December 18th, 2010 - 08:34
Wow! Is this a real site? What a bunch of losers. I know I will never get back these few moments of my life reading and replying to this garbage but this one time I will just have to endure it. I just could not resist.
oversigning.com?…Really?
I guess the bottom line is that everyone is outraged and thinks that the Tide faithful should be too. What a crock. We all have lives (well, most of us anyway). We’re just fans. It’s not like corruption in government and something must be done. ROTFLMAO! This is football. Last I checked there is no crying in football so suck it up. Write your BLOG and let Wall Street Journal say whatever they want. The bottom line is that they are still going to line up to play for Saban. I think Dan Hawkins said it best: “It’s Division I football…It ain’t intramurals!”. I love it. Not every player gets to play and if they don’t like it then they can transfer.
What a bunch of crybaby crap.
In my experience when people resort to name calling it’s when they are losing the argument. If any of you think that these stereotypes fit anymore than around 10% of the people in this state then you are the ignorant ones. It’s as bad as saying that everyone from San Francisco is gay or that everyone from Texas and Oklahoma is a closet homosexual and that’s why they murder gays all the time. It’s grossly inaccurate. Well, at least the one about San Fran.
Unfortunately race relations will never meet the utopian standards set by people that live in the 80% of the country that is below 12% black. Here it’s more like 40% and though there are sects on both sides that love to hate one another the fact of the matter is the majority of both races not only coexist but are one community. I have at least 6 black friends that would do anything for me and I am the whitest guy they know. Around 150 of my 400 facebook friends are non-white. I’ve never heard a black man from here say anything but they are proud to be from here. Since everyone outside of Alabama thinks they are intellectually superior then it won’t be hard to comprehend the FACT that anytime cultures mix there will be problems and not just white/black but Jewish/German, Sunni/Shiite, Army/Marine. It’s sad but true. What it boils down to is this is about someone that wants to feel better about their own situation by looking down on someone else. It may be because their team and/or conference sucks and is tired of being not only told that the SEC is better but it being proven in the big game. So take your 1950′s, 60′s, 70′s Alabama stereotypes and use them around your friends and anyone else who, like you, have no Idea what you’re talking about.
I think the most unnerving thing of all for you is the pride of Alabamians. It just gets under everyone’s skin that we are all content with what and who we are. Next time don’t judge an entire state based off of a comedy routine you once saw or an article written by some sheltered Ivy league brat.
December 18th, 2010 - 22:16
Just in case you guys haven’t noticed this is not just a problem that is occurring in the SEC. It looks like FSU is starting to do the same thing. Oh wait isn’t Jim Bo a Sabin disciple?
December 18th, 2010 - 22:51
It is not our place to question Saban anything. It is the press’ job If you are any kind of real journalist then grow some cojones and take you credentials down to Tuscaloosa and ask him yourself. I think you have neither.
Don’t look now but another “oversigning” school form Alabama is ripping apart poor little by the book Ohio. Damn them and their extra players. If only Ohio could have signed a few more. everyone knows that it takes a few extra gray shirt players to teach the others how to tackle and run faster. It really isn’t fair.
December 19th, 2010 - 09:39
The fanbase of a particular school that oversigns will have no problem with this unethical practice as long as the Head Coach is producing positive results. The Bammers are the biggest example, LSU and Miles are probably worse than the Bammers to be honest.
This all falls on the parents at the end of the day. All of the schools have used car salesmen to try to get you to sign with them. Its the parents responsibility to do the proper research on every school and coaching staff before you let your child go to a particular school. Most parents and students are often overwhelmed by the process and sometimes decide on a coach that will practically kick your son out if he doesn’t pan out in a couple of years.
I would look at the behavior of the staff and the culture of the program. Oversigning, education, player arrests, graduation, among other things is what all parents should look at. Most parents and students often make their decision based on which coach could get them to the next level, and not realizing that only a very small percentage make it to the NFL.
The ones who should police this the most, the NCAA, simply turns a blind eye to this kind of practice. The only other organization who could step in, the SEC, has proven to be the most corrupt and incompetent conference in the face of college football.
Like the old saying goes; IF YOU AINT CHEATIN’ YOU AINT TRYIN’
December 19th, 2010 - 23:02
Was not able to reply directly to your post due to the limits placed on thread length on this site.
You want a fact? Here’s one for you: Mr. Kirschman said the decision to take the medical scholarship was ultimately his. You want me to believe everything else that he stated in the article but disregard that one part. You keep arguing that he had no choice as if you know the situation better than him. The decision to take the medical scholarship was ultimately his. Let it sink in. I don’t know how to make it any more clear than that.
I cited the second WSJ article because you challenged my assertion that players “opt” to transfer from Alabama. That was the crux of the arguement if you remember. We only have quotes from 6 former players, and all 6 stated that leaving the team was their choice. I thought that little “fact” was relevant and since you felt compelled to omit it when you referenced the WSJ article, I felt obligated to include it.
Actually, I’m pretty sure I was dead on about what it means to be cut from a team. But if you disagree, please share your definition of the phrase “being cut”.
As for your defense of Tressel, talk about thin. “it’s abundantly clear that what’s in his best interest is to remain true to his beliefs and principles”. Thanks for enlightening me with that little nugget. Now I know there’s no point in every questioning anything the man says or does because he’s simply above reproach. I’m sure he was on his knees begging Henton not to transfer (see, I can be sarcastic too).
And your continued attempts at scare tactics just reveal your own in-security on this issue. Obviously, you’re afraid that the NCAA cares as much about this issue as 99% of football fans (which is to say not at all), and you’re attempting to convince yourself otherwise with snarky comments about the things that I should fear like looming ESPN pieces.
Mr. Kirschman said the decision to take the medical scholarship was ultimately his by the way. In case you’ve forgotten again. Or is it just that you don’t believe him?
December 22nd, 2010 - 09:47
what you don’t understand is we are not oversigning some of our players have trasferred also so get your facts straigt and stop crying
December 22nd, 2010 - 21:53
you oversigning backers are redic….. Vesper, a greyshirt is communicated at the time they are offered said scholarship….NOT the next semester when Saban finds out how many players who are not performing or who want to transfer. You are way off base dude.
December 22nd, 2010 - 22:55
The POSSIBILITY of a greyshirt is communicated to some recruits when they are offered a scholarship. When the player signs his LOI he does so knowing that he may, or may not, be required to greyshirt. I’m sure there have been many recruits who wanted to sign with Alabama but were not willing to do so if it meant that they might have to greyshirt. Those players signed with other schools. Other players are willing to risk a possilbe greyshirt if it means one day playing for Alabama.
January 5th, 2011 - 22:19
Really. How many of these relatively poor black kids can afford $5-6K to attend school if they are “gray-shirted”? Typical Bama delusional rhetoric. One guy says it and it becomes fact in the mind of the minions. Or, are some of the boosters financing their education? That, I might believe.
January 5th, 2011 - 23:04
You shouldn’t speak if you don’t know what you’re talking about. When a player greyshirts, he delays his enrollment. Meaning he doesn’t attend school. Meaning he’s doesn’t pay any tuition. Speaking of “facts”, you should try learning a few.