Time to Gear Up for the Oversigning Cup
When we started this blog back in February of 2010, we were unable to collect enough data on all of the schools to conduct a formal Oversigning Cup. However this year, given the widespread attention now being given to oversiging (it has literally gotten to the point where you cannot read a sports article without seeing the word oversigning in there somewhere), we might, with your help, be able to conduct a formal Oversigning Cup and determine which schools go over the limit the most.
The formula is pretty simple, the hardest part and the most time consuming is looking at a roster and determine how many players are on scholarship at the end of the season (now) and how many are seniors that have expired their eligibility, but once you have that it is easy to figure out the rest.
The Oversigning Cup - 2011
| School | SPES | Departures | Budget | # Verbals | Cup Points | Roster |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Ole Miss* | 85 | 15 | 15 | 29 | +14 | Link 1 2 |
| Alabama | 84 | 12 (8sr+3jr+1ts) | 13 | 18 (+2gs+3Juco)=23 | +10 | Link |
| USC** | 85 | 25 | 25 (-10) | 25 | +10 | Link |
| LSU | 85 | 12 (11sr+1jr) | 12 | 21 | +9 | |
| Arkansas | 85 | 20 (19sr+1jr) | 20 | 28 | +8 | |
| South Carolina | 77 | 18 | 26 | (30) | +5 | |
| Miss State | 85 | 19 | 19 | 24 | +5 | Link1 2 |
| Clemson | 83 | 20 (18sr+2jr) | 22 | 24 | +2 | Link |
| Michigan State | 85 | 17 | 17 | 18 | +1 | |
| Ohio State | 83 | 20 | 22 | 21 (+1Juco) | 0 | Link1 2 |
| Penn State | 84 | 14 (11sr+3dp) | 15 | 15 | 0 | Link |
| Florida State | 74 | 13 | 24 | 24 | 0 | Link |
| Notre Dame | 78 | 18 | 25 | 23 | -2 | Link |
| Miami | 85 | 15 | 15 | 12 | -3 | Link 1 2 |
| Florida | 84 | 18 | 19 | 15 | -4 | |
| Auburn | 84 | 25 (22sr+3jr) | 26 | 22 | -4 | |
| Minnesota | 74 | 14 | 25 | 20 | -5 | Link |
| Nebraska | 85 | 23 (20sr+2md+1tr) | 23 | 16 (+1gs+1ms)=18 | -5 | |
| Georgia | 84 | 25 (19sr+2jr+2dc+1ts+1md) | 26 | 21 | -5 | Link |
| Michigan | 80 | 14 (13sr+1tr) | 19 | 12 | -7 | Link 1 2 |
| Iowa | 85 | 29 | 29 | 20 | -9 |
Regarding the table above, here is what each column defines:
SPES: Scholarship Players at End of the Season: this is the total number of players on scholarship at the end of the season. This is basically the year end roster from which we subtract and add players to in order to determine the amount of oversigning.
Departures: Graduating seniors with no remaining eligibility and Juniors that declare for the draft by January 15th.
Budget: The number of recruits that a school should sign based on 85 - (SPES - Departures). Example, with an SPES of 84 and Departures of 18, the Budget would be 85 - (84-18) = 19
# of Players Signed: This is the total number of players that sign a national letter of intent in the current recruiting class. Update: this field has been renamed to # Verbals until NSD gets here - at which time we will change it back.
Cup Points: The total number of signed letters that exceed the budget number. This is the number of oversigned players. This will also be the number of players that are cut, forced into transfers, medical hardships, greyshirts, or set a form letter from Les Miles.
Included above was South Carolina's numbers for this year (these are not official yet because players have not signed their letters of intent yet) based on information from another oversigning blog that has been created recently.
http://oversigningnotes.wordpress.com/2011/01/07/steve-spurrier-has-some-cuts-to-make/
The only way to make this happen is to have a lot of help from readers and people who are passionate about fixing this problem. If you want to participate, simply post your numbers in the discussion thread below; all we ask is that you provide some sort of reference for your numbers.
Those of you who want to help the cause but aren't sure what you can do - this is your chance to pitch in - pick a team, maybe your own or maybe your rival, and investigate their recruiting numbers and practices - help gather the data and post it here and we will put it up on the board.
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- @GerdOzone imagine what that number would be had he oversigned at the rate of Saban/Miles/Nutt/Petrino.
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January 7th, 2011 - 08:29
Ok, first of all I am against oversigning. I am a Georgia fan and a SEC fan. I understand why everyone is mad at Bama, Aub, LSU and all the other schools. But why is nobody talking about Iowa State? They are the biggest oversigners of all. They rank 3rd in the country on overall commitments each year. But I am sure they dont loose as many Juniors as these big SEC schools loose each year! So they have to be cutting even more players than the big SEC schools!
I beleive that the SEC is getting the negative publicity it deserves from this situation. But, by not pointing the finger at Iowa State you are loosing some credibilty. It makes it look like you are just going after the schools that are winning and not all the schools that deserve it. Yes there are alot of SEC schools that do it. But overall the SEC schools loose more players early to the NFL than other conferences. You need to look at all schools! Not just the ones that will get your name in the paper.
Time to be right and moral, not right and popular!
January 7th, 2011 - 10:27
I have looked at Iowa State and Kansas State; both schools have high numbers because of huge JUCO numbers.
January 7th, 2011 - 13:34
in 2006 Iowa State signed 30 and only 4 were juco, 2008 only 1 juco.
January 7th, 2011 - 15:41
Shane,
and guess who was the coach of Iowa State in 2006? Gene Chizik! Makes sense now doesnt it?
January 7th, 2011 - 18:58
It’s the same pattern with Les Miles at Oklahoma State. Same with Nick Saban moving from LSU to Alabama, and I’m also suspecting Saban pushed the Big 10 limits at Michigan State as far as he could while there. If it hasn’t already been done yet on this site it would be good to go ahead and connect those dots for all to see.
January 11th, 2011 - 16:24
In 5 seasons at Michigan State, Nick Saban produced only one team that even finished in the top 25.
With the Miami Dolphins he was sub-.500 over 2 years and quickly bailed.
He can’t win outside of unethical schools that let him gain a major advantage via oversigning.
January 7th, 2011 - 20:39
and was he there in 2008 also?
January 11th, 2011 - 16:22
Yep.
January 7th, 2011 - 15:22
1) The SEC is barely getting any negative publicity at all. Auburn will is in a national championship game thanks in part to Gene Chizik removing more players via medical hardships and “undisclosed violation” dismissals than most schools have in the past 10-15 years.
2) I’m all for spotlighting every school that oversigns.
January 7th, 2011 - 15:26
might want to point out Baylor and A&M then. seems some Texas schools do it too.
January 7th, 2011 - 15:32
Have they dismissed groups of players from the team for “undisclosed violations” at a time they were oversigned?
Have they dismissed groups of players from the team via medical hardships at a time when they were oversigned?
If so, they deserve just as much criticism for being extremely unethical.
January 7th, 2011 - 09:08
We’ll win this title too!
January 7th, 2011 - 11:19
Yes both Kstate and Iowa State take ALOT of JUCO players each year and that is why their numbers are so high. With that being said, some JUCO players they take will only compete 2 or 3 years at that institution. It would still be interesting to see what their numbers look like……
January 7th, 2011 - 11:26
What about W.Virgina, Oregon State?
January 7th, 2011 - 11:46
Also, why does this site focus so much on LSU and Alabama when they are middle of the pack in the SEC when it comes to oversigning? Aren’t Auburn and MSU oversigning even more than they are, but don’t seem to be recieving any of the vitriol from this blog?
January 7th, 2011 - 15:33
Is your interest stopping extremely unethical behavior and preventing injustice… or protecting your favorite football team?
January 7th, 2011 - 15:44
My point was that the author of this blog appears to have a bias towards dredging up anything he can related to oversigning, but only so long as it pertains to LSU and Alabama, while he rarely mentions the actual worst offenders.
January 11th, 2011 - 16:15
No, he definitely mentions the worst offenders. You are free to contribute specifics about other oversigning programs though. I’m sure Josh and many here would welcome you joining the fight to spotlight any schools engaged in this highly unethical scam.
January 7th, 2011 - 11:48
FSU? 2010-25 commits, 09-21 commits, 08-33 commits, 07-20 commits, equals 99 in 4 years.
A&M? 2010-24 commits, 09-18 commits, 08-28 commits, 07-24 commits, 90 in 4 years.
Baylor? 10-24 commits, 09-28 commits, 08-23 commits, 07-29 commits, 104 in 4 years.
Ok State? 10-27 commits, 09-26 commits, 08-29 commits, 07-23 commits, 105 in 4 years.
Oregon? 10-24 commits, 09-26 commits, 08-22 commits, 07-29 commits, 101 in 4 years.
ASU? 10-26 commits, 09-22 commits, 08-28 commits, 07-24 commits, 100 in 4 years.
Louisville? 100 commits from 07-10.
WVU? 102 commits from 07-10.
seems like many college recruit more than they would have space for. And this list includes schools from Pac10, Big 12, Big East, ACC. So lets not make it look like only 1 conference does it.
January 7th, 2011 - 11:51
It is a disgrace.
The NCAA is all about preserving the integrity of the Student Athlete.
Yet oversigning is the complete opposite.
ESPN and the NCAA seem to back the SEC 100%. I understand why this stuff happens in the SEC, its ultra-competative. But why doesnt someone put a stop to it? Yes, the SEC is the best league, and they probably would be even if they stopped cheating. But they do cheat the system. Horribly. Cant any smart person see this will eventually boil to a head?
These student athletes are being used and abused. They arnt students, they’re being treated as professionals with a 4 year shelf life and no future unless they are one of the select few who make it.
We’re in a new era of cheating. Its building momentum, the SEC is leading the way. Its sad.
January 7th, 2011 - 11:52
This site is just as much about bashing the SEC as it is about stoppinng oversigning. They know if the put the names Alabama and LSU out there people are gonna read the stories. They dont stop to figure that 3-4 of these kids they sign every year are just like juco’s. They are talented enough they go pro early. And some of the kids are just trouble. They get kicked out of school on there own. And if you have as much talent as alot of these SEC schools do you are gonna have kids that could start at other schools but not the SEC school they are at, and they want to transfer. I am not a Alabama fan at all! But this is blown out of porportion some what! Georgia has a kid transferring right now because are safties are too deep and he knows he cant play there. Nobody is saying anything about it. If he was at Bama this site would have a whole page dedicated to it.
January 7th, 2011 - 14:16
Yep. Big10 sour grapes.
I find it uproariously hilarious that schools that sign someone to an ATHLETIC scholarship, are required to stand by said player when that player doesn’t pan out.
However, if another player wants to leave school early for the pro’s, also hurting the school, that’s completely ok.
Texas should have to give back the 2009 season Moral Victory National Championship. It really belongs here.
January 7th, 2011 - 15:28
Do you think powerful coaches backed by state institutions are on equal footing with 17-year-old kids?
I bet you are a big social justice fan outside of this issue, right?
January 7th, 2011 - 15:48
You don’t past muster with an Academic Scholly, you get dropped.
You get recruited as a fast WR with good hands, and it turns out you can’t catch a cold? You get dropped.
And I have no problem with over-recruiting especially to hedge against academic non-qualifiers.
But I notice you completely skid right over the whole imbalance of the issue of kids leaving early for the pros. Nicely done.
January 7th, 2011 - 21:27
So let’s say it is Big Ten sour grapes. I disagree, but let’s entertain the idea. Does that change any of the facts presented on this site? Your assertion that this is Big Ten sour grapes is an attempt to dismiss the information on this site. An intelligent person doesn’t pick and choose which pieces of information he wants to use. He uses them all. Even biased material can provide great insight. This information however, is not biased. They are facts. Perhaps the writing itself is biased, but the information posted is not.
I’ve read from a few SEC fans on here that just say this is Big Ten fans complaining. So what if it is? Does it change a single fact? No.
The fact a person tries to dismiss valuable and factual information in the ways that many SEC fans tells us a lot about those people. it also calls into question the academic standards in the SEC. Actually, it calls into question the academic standards of grade schools in the South. We learn the differences between facts and opinions in grade school. Sour grapes is only relevant if opinions are presented. none have been. You’re confusing facts and opinions, which is unfortunately something that way too many people do.
January 7th, 2011 - 22:22
Just as one side of the issue relies on the “sour grape” arguement, the other side relies on condescending remarks about academic standards in the South. Is one arguement really more relative to this issue than the other? You couldn’t make your point (a decent one too I might add) without using the opportunity to hurl insults at people whom you’ve never met. I think that tells us a lot about you.
January 7th, 2011 - 22:30
Oh please. There’s plenty of statistical evidence that supports what I said. People that attend schools in the South are less educated than those in the North. That’s largely true at the collegiate level as well as prior to that. That doesn’t make them less of a person by any stretch of the imagination and I never said it did. Did I unfairly pick on one person? Perhaps and for that I do apologize, but generally speaking what I said is true. It’s obviously not true for all but it’s about probability. Does that say something about me? Sure. But it says a lot more about the quality of the education in that region as well as the willingness for those who live there to put up with it.
January 7th, 2011 - 22:45
Even if it is true, why bring it up? It’s no more relevant to a discussion of oversigning than sour grapes. If I can prove that some posters on this forum are motivated by sour grapes, would you be ok with me using the sour grapes arguement?
January 8th, 2011 - 16:19
Vesper, you’re correct. I’ve engaged in several discussions about oversigning that quickly turned into anti-oversigning zealots hurling insults at the South… as if that is a defense against logic.
January 8th, 2011 - 17:43
Charlie, the reason the insult may be appropriate is that it seems everyone else in the country is against oversigning. It appears the one region that is against it is the least educated group in the country. It’s no more an argument against oversigning that “Big Ten sour grapes” are. Both are likely true statements, which of the two is important to the discussion? The fact some Big Ten fans have sour grapes or the region in this country that favors oversigning also happens to be the least educated part of the nation?
I’d argue that the reason people support oversigning is because of their education. it’s because of their compassion, or lack thereof.
January 8th, 2011 - 18:31
I count at least two contradictions in your post. It’s hard to argue with someone who is contradicting himself because I don’t know what it is that you actually mean.
January 8th, 2011 - 17:56
Doesn’t hurt the school. They received more than they bargained for…that is a silly assertion.
January 7th, 2011 - 15:27
Oh, jeez.
Georgia has signed 86 players the last 4 years. They currently have around 10 scholarships free to give… ABOVE the number of current commits they have in the 2011 class. So there is zero reason to think Nick Williams is transferring of his own volition or that Georgia coaches haven’t been able to objectively counsel him on the matter.
Williams:
“I love Coach Richt, because he gave me the option of coming back,” Williams said. “He gave me a release, but if everything doesn’t work out, I could still come back to Georgia. I love Coach Richt. He’s a great guy, and I appreciate him giving me the opportunity.”
http://georgia.247sports.com/Article/Nick-Williams-discusses-decision-to-transfer-10047
Instead of trying to defend the indefensible, why don’t you turn around and demand that it not be done, Shane? How rare would that make you in the South?
January 7th, 2011 - 15:29
“isn’t”
January 7th, 2011 - 15:46
What was Georgia’s record this year?
January 7th, 2011 - 21:01
yeah they have the record they do because they dont oversign…hence oversigning provides a competitive advantage….
January 9th, 2011 - 22:01
That’s exactly the problem, the schools that oversign reap a competitive advantage and that encourages all schools to follow suit. Maybe some schools are alright with their football programs spitting out expendable kids, but the majority certainly aren’t, as evidenced by most schools not oversigning despite its legality and structural advantages.
January 7th, 2011 - 20:45
I am saying that Williams IS transferring on his own! Do they not teach you how to read at texas? Maybe thats why kids love to go there! They know the fans cant read all the stuff posted about there crap season!
What I was saying, if this kid was at alabama and transferred, this sitewould beall over it saying its due to oversigning! Read befor you comment!!
January 7th, 2011 - 21:29
When you’re making fun of one’s education perhaps you shouldn’t confuse there and their.
Just sayin’.
January 11th, 2011 - 16:18
Um, I understood what you were saying.
The point was that 1) Williams has made it very clear that he is doing it entirely of his own volition, going into specifics on his love for Richt and the fact Richt will take him back at any point, and – more importantly – 2) Georgia is NOT oversigned. So there is ZERO reason to think he’s being chased off.
Don’t oversign and then people won’t conclude the very obvious about your numerous off-season “transfers” to clear up space.
January 7th, 2011 - 11:54
oh yea, S.Carolina lost a verbal commit to Fla State today. You might wanna take one point off!
January 7th, 2011 - 12:03
I think the site understands there are going to be transfers and kids that dont make it at every college.
But the SEC is getting nailed, because its becoming pretty obvious that these kids arnt ‘making it’, not because they’re failing, but because they’re being forced out.
Its not professional football. Big Ten teams dont see the turnover the SEC does, why is that? If a guy isn’t what you expected, you shouldnt just kick his life to the curb. You should make sure he matures and gets an education. Not in the SEC. And this is just one of the major concerns any intelligent person has about the SEC.
They also pay their Asst coaches ludicrous amounts of money and operate in the red every year. If that isnt a red flag, along with oversigning, I dont know what is. The NCAA just sits there.
See, I’m not for giving these universities death penalties. I dont want them punished. I want the NCAA to be proactive and not wait for this all to boil over. But thats the way its headed.
And you know, Bama and Florida will stay above it, “find a way” to avoid the hammer. The Miss. St’s, will not.
January 8th, 2011 - 09:33
Florida doesnt oversign, neither does Georgia!
January 11th, 2011 - 08:51
Actually Alabama is one of the few schools that do turn a profit. They run 100% in the black. FYI so you can fix your strawman.
January 7th, 2011 - 12:14
I agree, the SEC isn’t the only conf. that does it.
But they led the way. And the NCAA just sits there.
Oversigning and operating in the red (by paying coaches too much) both lead to cheating. They build imbalances and people start trying to find ways to balance, to stay competative.
The NCAA is not proactive. They’ll wait for a few universities to slip up, give them the death penalty, and then try to scare some others back in to compliance. Why not just put a stop to things that obviously lead you down the wrong path?
The SEC doesnt need to cheat to be the best conf. They have the best talent base no matter what. But you almost have to start skirting rules to stay competative down there. And now this type of things has moved to almost every conference.
January 13th, 2011 - 14:52
Who is operating in the red? It certainly isn’t Alabama.
January 7th, 2011 - 14:21
http://uga.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=878&CID=387116
This might be useful for Georgia, but it looks like they will be under anyway as Richt refuses to oversign. It is very hard because most schools don’t publish the difference between scholarship players and walk-ons.
January 7th, 2011 - 14:40
Oklahoma State has 18 seniors leaving and 23 incoming recruits. I don’t think they have anyone going early to the draft. They do have a lot of walk-ons and non-scholarship players and I have no idea how many of those seniors were actually on scholarship. That does mean that there is a maximum of 18 scholarship players leaving (some could stay for fifth years also) and 23 incoming recruits means they are at a minimum 5 over budget.
Kansas and Texas each are also already three over budget without accounting for non-scholarship players or those returning for fifth years.
I just counted the numbers of seniors and incoming recruits from ESPN. If anyone has a way to provide info about how many fifth years are staying and how many of the leaving seniors weren’t on scholarship then that will be very useful. However, the numbers will only go up from that so these are minimum numbers for how far over these schools are.
January 7th, 2011 - 15:43
How many of the oversigning defenders here have asked their coaches to name grayshirts before players are locked in after signing day?
January 7th, 2011 - 21:04
exactly Dawg. At Alabama, Ole Miss and LSU the norm is to offer a scholly then decide if you have room at the last min after the kid has practiced in the summer…then offer a greyshirt. The rest of the nation lives by communicating the greyshirt well before hand (knowing well enough they may lose that recruit) just like the greyshirt is supposed to be used.
January 7th, 2011 - 21:19
Name one player, just one, who has said that he wasn’t told befoehand about his greyshirt at Alabama. I seriously doubt that you can. You can however find many instances where they say they were told. I agree that they should know beforehand, I also believe that people should not make accusations that are based solely on incomplete data and/or bias.
January 8th, 2011 - 16:45
Catch 5,
Here’s how it works. They make an accusation based on speculation, nothing more. Then you have to go defend baseless accusations… Your defense is then completely ignored.
January 8th, 2011 - 18:01
LOL…there are so many of these…Elliot Porter LSU – 2010. These coaches should be ashamed.
http://www.secfanatics.com/vbulletin/printthread.php?t=71471
Porter said. “It’s unfair how they told me at the last minute.”
January 8th, 2011 - 19:50
Yeah… Catch 5 said Alabama. You’re citing an LSU player; I think that it’s agreed that Miles takes advantage.
January 11th, 2011 - 16:20
LOL. Hilarious.
http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2010/08/scarbinsky_late_grayshirts_a_b.html
January 11th, 2011 - 16:19
Harrison Jones:
http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2010/08/scarbinsky_late_grayshirts_a_b.html
January 11th, 2011 - 16:57
What part of this did you not understand:
“Alabama informed Harrison Jones before he signed that a grayshirt was a possibility”
Not to even mention the fact that Harrison Jones wound up not grayshirting.
January 12th, 2011 - 17:08
you cant use logic, it confuses mr Texas Dawg
January 8th, 2011 - 16:32
How could coaches know greyshirts before signing day? Coaches do not necessarily know which players have really committed until signing day. Some of those players may also be deemed ineligible for any number of reasons.
January 11th, 2011 - 16:21
Yet very few schools oversign.
That must blow your mind.
January 7th, 2011 - 16:46
Iowa has 26 seniors and 3 to 4 juniors who may leave early. They’ve signed 19 so far. I don’t want to link to my own blog here, but if you click on my name you can find a Recruit list under Archives on the menu.
January 9th, 2011 - 01:25
Florida
SPES 84 (Frankie Hammonds Scholly was removed after his DWI arrest, but it should be reinstated this year)
Departures 18 (Didnt include any juniors, since none are officially declared yet, though Janoris Jenkins and Will Hill have both said they will declare)
Budget 18
# Verbals 16
Ill try to keep this updated if i get any other/different information. Definitely check my info to make sure it’s correct though, but i believe it’s pretty close if not spot on.