Oversigning.com
2Feb/1183

Today in a Nutshell

Coaches around the country were asked about their recruiting classes and their numbers.   Here is what a couple had to say about their numbers:

Things are hectic right now around here...hope to have the cup standings updated soon as well as a collection of comments from coaches around the country.  We hear Mark Ritch had some interesting things to say.

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  1. What he meant are all the people accusing him of oversigning do not know how many they had last year.

    • Really?

      Thanks.

      Why didn’t he just clear things up by giving the numbers?

      • What makes you think you have the right to know?

        • It is a public institution built with tax dollars. Of course the public has the right to know what they are at every public institution.

          • The University releases all kinds of economic information about how and where it spends its money, but what you are asking for is specific information involving the academic and economic arrangements for an individual (multiple individuals), and for that you have no claim, especially when said person is a minor. These are private records and I don’t believe that the University has the right to release it if they wanted to.

            BTW, in the video where the Saban quote was taken, Saban says (reinforcing the statement that nobody really knows who was on scholarship last year) that they didn’t have a full 85 scholarships last year. Go figure.

            • You could easily figure out the numbers if they have an accurate budget. They do have to disclose the amount of money given out for GIA’s. Each sport must do this. You could compare the tuition amounts to the GIA amounts, accounting for out of state students. (Each univeristy handles those differently. )

              BTW,,,This is not a privacy issue, because you can get the information in aggregate without invading anyone’s privacy. A simple FOIA request should suffice.

        • Roll Tide, Hosni.

  2. I’m just wondering which 2 or 3 current OSU players are going to get cut to make room for these new recruits.

  3. OSU did not go over on recruits.

    • Did a couple of current players get cut just before NSD?

        • Tressel hit the budget number, so no oversigning. I know Bama fans were waiting to jump.

          Still, I think the classic argument has always been from the anti-oversigners is that there is a difference between consistently +10 each recruiting class vs a random 1 or 2 over. Maybe I am wrong.

          • The way I see it, if you can have a plan for how to fairly and effectively manage a roster that is 1 or 2 over, you can have a plan for how to fairly and effectively manage a roster that is 10 over. Especially if the coach that is 10 over has several signees that he knows will not qualify.

            • Just going with your point for a second…

              What conclusions can one have if a coach is consistently having a high number of kids not qualify?

              • I’m not sure what you want me to say. That he recruits players who are at risk of not qualifying?

                • Is there proper guidance, monitoring…..?

                  Or is he just an X and Os Pro coach ?

                  I do think that he will try the NFL one more time.

                  • When I spoke of players not qualifying, I was referring to signees not current players. Alabama usually has 2 to 3 members of a recruiting class who fail to qualify academically coming out of high school. There’s not much a college coach can do about the grades that a signee gets his last semester in high school. In terms of the “guidance, monitoring…” of players who actually join the team, Alabama has distinguished itself in honor roll students and APR under Saban.

                    • Can I get a link about the APR/Honor roll for my own knowledge?

                      This whole thing got me thinking that Saban shares of a lot of the coaching characteristics of his mentor, Belichick.

                      –great roster manager
                      –attention to detail
                      –a miserable gruff
                      –generally, views players as talent…nothing more.
                      –disregards relationships

                      I still can’t believe that he lied to the Dolphins like he did.

                    • I veered a little too off-topic, but I saw an article that mentioned that Saban didn’t think that he could win a NC at MSU.

                      One wonders why not?

                      I don’t expect you to reply, but I had no other place to put this random post :)

                    • Sanford,

                      I agree with three of your five characteristics of Saban.

                      And I don’t know too much about Saban’s tenures at MSU or Miami other than both programs were sad to see him leave.

                    • Oh, and I have responded to your request for APR/honor roll links (I posted it at the bottom of this page). It’s currently “awaiting moderation”.

          • And you are wrong. Back when Josh thought that 0 oversigning was allowed by the Big Ten, he swore up and down that oversigning by even 1 player was immoral.

            • Not sure that is Josh’s position. I think “normal” attrition has always been a consideration, which I think is basically what this is all about. Bama/Sec fans say losing, 8.9.10 players *consistently* is normal attrition and others roll their eyes at that suggestion.

              IMO, there is no evidence to support that those “attrition” numbers should be that high year in and out.

              Josh, please correct me if I am wrong.

              • Can we talk about how the numbers on this site are completely wrong.

                in 2008, only 27of the 32 actually came to Bama, atleast 3 have transfered since then and 5 juniors went to the NFL this year. then there is Kerry Murphy who is counted for the 2007,2008, and 2009 classes.

                thats down to 18 players from that class, not 32

                • i will elaborate on my comment above

                  Bama’s 2008 Class

                  Terrence Cody ( NFL )
                  Marcel Dareus (Draft)
                  Julio Jones (Draft)
                  Mark ingram(Draft)
                  BJ Scott ( transfer to South Alabama)
                  Devonta Bolton ( East Miss Com Col)( never went to Bama)
                  Destin hood ( Washington Nationals)
                  Chris Jackson( transferred to Georgia Tech)
                  Star Jackson ( transferred Georgia State)
                  Alonzo Lawrence ( transferred to Southern Miss)
                  Kerry Murphy ( didnt got to Bama till 2009)
                  Ivan Matchett ( medical scholarship)( hurt in spring 09)
                  Jermaine Preyear( requested transfer and left, not sure where)
                  Melvin Ray (LA Dodgers)

                  • Vesper,
                    Non qualifying students is one of the main arguments about oversigning! If coach A at Wisconsin university refuses to oversign and he has 2 kids NOT qualify it is on HIM and HIS coaching staff. The SEC doesnt get a free pass by allowing them to oversign in the case they may not have 2,3,4, kids not qualify academically. Nebraska for instance is still waiting on a kid to qualify from last years recruiting class. They are still offering a scholarship from this year by keeping ONE open. What they are NOT doing is rolling in with a completely filled class and offering him and oversigned scholarship. Get the point?
                    forget 2008! We know Alabama HAD to get down to 85 last year because Saban had to greyshirt 2 players. There is nothing else to be said. You only greyshirt when you DO NOT have any scholarships.

                    • Here is a scenario for you. A coach knows that Recruit A may not qualify, so he offers Recruit B a scholarship, and tells Recruit B that if Recruit A qualifies that Recruit B will greyshirt. Who is the victim in this scenario? Big Ten coaches? So even though Recruit A and Recruit B are thrilled with this arrangement, you want to ban it because you’ve convinced yourself that oversigning is immoral.

                    • That would be a fine and dandy scenario but Alabama will not be able to offer 10 greyshirts which is how many scholarships Alabama is currently oversigned.

                    • Oh really? And you know this how?

                    • I guess they could offer 10 greyshirts if it was communicated well beforehand but Alabama wont do this because they will just find some “misses” to get rid of through medical hardship, forced transfer and making up some reason for to cut them from the team.

          • Actually according to CJT himself which I quoted in the other thread OSU signed 23 players to LOIs yesterday 1 over their bidget that is on here. He also went on to say that the roster could grow and that they were holding a spot still for Carter. Which him alone would put OSU to 24. Plus 2 for those keeping score.

  4. Vesper,
    dude you are an intelligent dude, I can tell. You know Ohio State (I am not a fan whatsoever, I just look at the facts) did not go over. It is a different mentality with Alabama. If Saban doesnt know who is on scholarships (and most schools the head coach has to review tape, meet with the athlete and sign off on the scholarship offer) then who at Alabama actually knows? The defense of oversigning is getting almost comical from these coaches and fans.

    • You totally misunderstood Saban’s quote. The “Nobody” he’s referring to in that quote includes everyone outside of the actual program. He’s saying that while you and I are guessing who is on scholarship, he and his staff actually know what the situation is (i.e. who is on scholarship, who is paying his own way, who has expressed an interest in qualifying, who has a serious medical condition, etc…).

      • transferring not qualifying. I would hope they have all expressed an interest in qualifying.

      • Wow. Really?

        Thanks for the enlightenment.

        The point is that Saban can’t give his #s as Fitzgerald can because Saban has a lot to hide. Fitzgerald doesn’t so he can speak openly about it.

        • How many other coaches around the country gave his #’s?

          • it should be public record to stop oversigning. Alabama is a public institution so it should be public records. Saban would never do that because he is a chronic oversigner and has to get rid 8-10 a year because of it.

            • If you feel that way, then I recommend you file a Freedom of Information Act request. I’ve never seen a single coach release a statement indicating which players on his roster are on scholarship and which ones are not, so I’m not sure why you expect Saban to.

              • If coaches were forced to release this information then it would clear it up the oversigning issue. That is assuming Saban actually knows who is on scholarship. haha

              • Are you stating that you’ve never seen a program indicate which players are on scholarship and which are not, or just that you’ve never seen a coach release a statement about which players are on scholarship and which are not? Generally speaking, the commonality of the former makes the latter unnecessary.

                Cordially,

                GR

                • I’m saying I’ve never seen a coach provide to the public a complete list of which players are on scholarship. That appears to be what some want Saban to do, and I’ve never heard of a coach doing that.

                  • Has the school or athletic department put out such a list? I would be surprised if such information is not easily accessible.

                    • All schools issue a total roster (usually 110-130 players) but the 85 or fewer that are on scholly are not designated.

          • Well all of them, duh.

  5. Sanford,

    With respect to APR:
    http://blog.al.com/kevin-scarbinsky/2010/06/alabamas_a_lot_smarter_than_th.html
    http://blog.al.com/bamabeat/2010/06/university_of_alabama_gets_hig.html

    I did some digging on my own on this site (http://web1.ncaa.org/maps/cVbnp9TaprRelease.jsp) and found that Alabama has a higher Mulit-year APR (952) in football than the following BCS Conference schools:

    Auburn, Arkansas, Mississippi State, Kentucky, Ole Miss, South Carolina, Tennessee, Baylor, Iowa State, Kansas State, Oklahoma State, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Colorado, Kansas, Nebraska, Texas, Michigan State, Purdue, Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota, Arizona State, Oregon State, Arizona, UCLA, Oregon, Washington, Washington State, Florida State, North Carolina State, Maryland, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Syracuse, Cincinnati, UCONN, Louisville, Pitt, South Florida, West Virginia

    Alabama’s ’08-’09 APR in football was 972: http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/apr2009/Lh6OjRWGcnU8_2009_apr.pdf

    Alabama led the nation in 2009 with 13 graduates on it’s football roster; a number that increased to 21 for the National Championship Game following December ceremonies. Alabama had 12 football players on the 2010 SEC Freshmen Academic Honor Roll, more than any other school.

    http://www.rollbamaroll.com/2010/7/19/1577692/alabama-football-freshmen-lead-sec

    Alabama’s starting QB, Greg McElroy, was a Rhodes Scholarship finalist

    http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2010/11/greg_mcelroy_is_a_rhodes_schol.html

    • Not a single statistic you cited provides justification for oversigning, does it?

      As much as the content of this site focuses on Saban, ‘Bama’s (and much of the SEC’s) oversigning practices precede him by some 40-50 years (at least). Same with USC, Texas, and a handful of other schools.

      Much as I loathe the Big Ten, the rules they have put in place in response to oversigning are to be commended. I can only hope that the NCAA adopts them, and soon.

      What is it about the notion that your program should have to compete under the same rules as the competition that upsets you so much?

      Cordially,

      GR

      • Read all the comments above this one. Sanford requested the information on APR and honor roll, so I posted it.

        • So naturally you posted it down here. Silly me.

          • The thread of comments was so long that I was unable to reply to the comment requesting the information due to the restrictions in place on this site. I started my post with “Sanford,” so others would know that it was directed at a specific person and not just a general comment that I was throwing out there.

          • stop being a douche Grumple. His comment was directed at someone else that asked for it.

            • Of course, the comment he was addressing was in a different response thread – hence my confusion – but I’m glad that you augmented his explanation with your thoughtful comment. Thanks.

              • I love when someone post something of note about Bama or other SEC schools and you guys dismiss it. When someone post something about OSU or Illinois for going over, another dismiss.

                talk about biased.

  6. As far as not qualifying goes, everyone who hasn’t seen it should watch the documentary “Hoop Dreams”, which follows two black, underprivileged kids from the 8th grade through high school and their recruitment by colleges as they finish HS. One of the two is recruited by Marquette, but he doesn’t have the necessary minimum ACT score to qualify for admission. The kid takes the ACT three or four times (whatever the max was at the time) and finally gets the score he needs, and everyone–his family, Marquette and, obviously, the kid–wins.

    The notion that any school should have to avoid kids who might not qualify because of some kind of imposed “budget” is ridiculous. Ridiculous. If signing a kid who hasn’t qualified yet inspires that kid to make the extra effort he needs to make to qualify, then the process has worked for everyone. It seems that most of you are so focused on limiting your competitors’ schollie offers under the guise of it being the “right thing”, that you are overlooking the fact that oversigning, in some cases, provides one last chance for some kids to not only get a great college education, but to play a sport he loves for one of the top programs in the nation.

    You guys need to get past your desire to see your own programs win championships–and don’t pretend like that isn’t the main reason this site even exists–and see that what you are proposing, in part, will do harm to some of these kids.

    • Alabama, the frontier of opportunity. Who knew?

      Based on your own biased and values, you may think that his site was created because of some perceived jealousy, but I can assure you that nobody aspires to be like the SEC West.

      • If you would open your mind up, and drop your own bias, then would see that there are multiple perspectives on this. I don’t expect that to happen, but then again, you must appreciate that the people on the other side of this issue won’t necessarily be coming around to your way of thinking either.

        • Your point was considered a long time ago.

          It’s clear the motive to oversign is not to provide opportunity to kids; it’s clearly to benefit the football team. For every kid who gets an “opportunity”, with such high oversigning numbers, there is going to be a kid who will get the shaft. Opportunity is negated.

          Though there may be one tidbit of something resembling something posititive, the ethical and competive equality cost far outweigh any shred of good.

        • let me see….do I think its right teams oversign by 8-10 players every year and then make up reasons to get rid of at least 7 of them?still nope.

          • Is it right to assume that the reasons were made up?

            Duke and Carolina basketball lose players all the time, despite the fact no scholarship limits are at work. The Wear twins left Carolina after last season to get more playing time somewhere else. One kid got booted from the team. That was 20% of the roster. Yet no one accused Roy of sending them packing to make room for the next crop of recruits. Why? Because scholarship limits never come into play in basketball. They generally have more scholarships than they ever need. The last few always go to kids who keep the team GPA up and work their butts off in practice.

            You assume the worst because you want to assume the worst. In spite of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

            • What “overwhelming evidence to the contrary” do you speak of in regards to the issue at hand?

              • The only “evidence” that is brought to bear is when defenders of oversigning demand that you provide evidence of intentional oversigning that would provide support beyond a shadow of a doubt that a school did oversign. If you can’t provide that level of evidence, then that is used as “evidence” that oversigning does not exist.

                • This is no more the case that your saying that if a kid leaves and it APPEARS to be against his will, then that de facto means it is. If a kid is a behavior issue and has been told to straighten his act out, and he doesn’t, then he is released from his schollie. What other “evidence” do you need? If you think there is going to be some sort of public hearing every time a kid is let go due to behavioral issues/violation of team rules, then you are HIGH.

  7. sorry for the typos

  8. My two cents:

    Not having an available scholly is NOT the only reason a university would offer a greyshirt. A greyshirt year gives a raw kid with potential time to mature and finish growing, or a kid with sketchy academics time to get a couple of additional credits or two at a prep school, or a kid who plays a position at which a university is stacked an additional year to wait out a logjam at that position. There ARE legit reasons to offer and/or accept a voluntary greyshirt. The greyshirting itself isn’t the issue here, but rather when players are forced into it because a school signs a dozen more players than it needs.

    I think it’s reasonable to expect a slight amount of attrition each year. With 85 college kids, odds are excellent that one of them will fail academically, run afoul of the law, sustain a serious injury or just plain quit. A school that oversigns by, say, 1 or two scholarships is a far different matter than Ole Miss being 14 over. It’s not unreasonable to expect that, as Jim Tresell once said, a coaching staff is likely to have knowledge of an impending transfer, a nagging injury or other issue that might affect their numbers long before the general public does.

    A lot of (nearly all) of the comments on this board are predicated on bias for or against specific teams. Do us all a favor and drop that foolishness.

  9. As a football lover that has lived and taught in Alabama for over 20 years (and not a fan of any public university here), I disagree with many Tide and Tiger fans about oversigning. What outsiders fail to realize is the win first, nothing else matters mindset that pervades the deep south. It isn’t about Student-Athletics, it is about bragging rights…even though a high percentage of the fans have never darkened the door of higher education. If scum ball coaches tag “W”s up, EVERYTHING else can be forgiven. It doesn’t matter if your team leads the nation in player arrests (like bama in ’08) or you get a one year rent-a-ho player like Newton who isn’t there for an education, just an opportunity to be an NFL pick. Just win. Remember, we are talking about two teams that have met the criteria for NCAA death penalty sanctions at least TWICE.

  10. hmm, my comment was deleted but i will try again. the linked article that you had for Richt, in which he stated,

    “If we offer a kid in our state and he says he’s coming, we want to take him, OK? Sometimes we’re a little bit slower to offer maybe than some out of state schools. Sometimes that might hurt a kid’s feelings. Sometimes that might hurt a coach’s feelings. That’s not our intention. Our intention is to have integrity when we offer a kid and be able to follow through”

    And then when in-state Devin Burns, who was offered a scholarship from the OC Mike Bobo, comes on the UGA campus with his entire family to officially commit, he is told by an asst coach that he no longer has an offer. I think Mr Burns would disagree with Coach Richt’s statement.

    http://blogs.ajc.com/recruiting/2009/07/21/carver-columbus-coach-bans-uga-recruiters/

  11. oversigning.com: all stupid, all the time. Win some games and quit complaining. You are like a 5 ft 1 275 pound girl complaining that she didn’t get a date to the prom. Deal with your own shortcommings before blaming the world for having something against fat chicks.

    • wow. you amazed me and wanted me to switch in favor of oversigning.

      • I agree, BetterRed. Clearly, Craig is a beacon of light for the SEC.

        I will attempt to communicate with Craig using the same type of stereotypical images for females that he has used. ready:

        Craig. the problem is that the SEC is like some hot high school chick who “puts out” in the first five minutes of a date with a good looking, elite guy and the other hot girls have to decide whether they want to match Miss SEC, no matter “how low” she is willing to go (get the playful image, Craig!) or if they want to voluntarily refrain from such immoral behavior — because the other girls know for sure that Miss Sec is willing to go down faster and lower and dirtier than they are willing no matter what they do.

        Understand the problem, now? BTW, this is just an example, I don’t want to be engaged in a sociological discussion about rates of teenage sex (highest in south), teenagers with babies (highest in south), unwed mothers (highest in south) or divorce rate (highest in south). This is a metaphor about “Miss SEC” and not an analysis of how “chicks” in the South would actually respond to this challenge.

        • teenage sex, teenagers with babies and unwed mothers, basically leading back again to teenage sex can be mostly attributed to the bible belt people in charge that dont want sex education in the school or even available to their children, so they rush into sex without knowledge. it also has nothing to do with oversigning so it was dumb of you to even bring it up, except that you wanted to denigrate southerners.

        • So now you are not just bitter about the fact that the Big Ten sucks, but about the fact that you couldn’t get laid in high school? Probably didn’t work out for you in college either.

    • So your argument against the notion that oversigning places winning football games above the education of the student-athlete is……

      “Shut up and win more football games!”

      Priceless.


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