Oversigning.com
17Feb/11180

Add Georgia Athletic Director McGarity to the List

 

“We will not over-sign at Georgia, either," McGarity said.

http://georgia.247sports.com/Article/McGarity-wants-to-curtail-oversigning-in-SEC-15582

Sounds like the SEC East has decided to take a stand against the SEC West and the oversigning abuse that takes place at Ole Miss, Alabama, LSU, and Auburn (Note: Auburn's oversigning issues were primarily in the Tuberville era -- Gene Chizik has had room the last two years for his numbers).

According to McGarity, “I think it will be a topic for discussion (at SEC meetings) in Destin this year.”

“I think you will see controls in place,” McGarity said. “Now what that model will look like will be determined later -- sooner than later. … I think you'll see it being dealt with at the conference level much like the Big Ten (Conference) deals with it currently.”

SEC teams currently are limited to 28 signees in a certain class. But there are technical ways around the 28, such as the ability to count prospects that enroll early to the previous year.

In the Big Ten, teams are restricted from recruiting more than the 85 players. This has led to cries that Big Ten schools continue to play against a stacked deck when it comes to the SEC, which has an ongoing five-year streak of BCS titles.

“No question it gives the SEC a big advantage," former Ohio State coach John Cooper recently told The Columbus (Ohio) Dispatch. "And let's face it -- they don't need another advantage.”

http://georgia.247sports.com/Article/McGarity-wants-to-curtail-oversigning-in-SEC-15582

McGarity’s preference would be a rule similar to what the Big Ten has in place. By instituting that, McGarity says the SEC could then help initiate change on the national level.

“For instance, if you know you're going to lose 20 student-athletes at the end of the year, then you basically should be able to sign that amount,” McGarity said. “I know there's several proposals out there that we'll discuss later. But I think there has to be some controls in place that prevent oversigning from occurring.

“And it should be based on the number of individuals that you're graduating or that are moving on to the NFL or choose to transfer at the appropriate time. We've got a lot of work to do to work through that process, but I think in general, (we should do) whatever we can do to avoid the situations that have developed here recently.”

http://georgia.247sports.com/Article/McGarity-wants-to-curtail-oversigning-in-SEC-15582

One thing is for sure, in order for oversigning to go away in the SEC you are going to have to cut the head off of the snake and make 100% sure that no one is abusing the practice -- all it takes is one school doing it and the rest will feel as though they have to do it in order to keep up. 

Adopting the Big 10 rules for oversigning is the ideal short-term solution.  However, given how hard it has been to get the SEC to address this issue, we would not be surprised to see a new loophole emerge as a result of banning oversigning.

Comments (180) Trackbacks (0)
  1. Georgia, Florida, The Birmingham News…

    Typical Big 10 whiners.

    • They are sick and tired of the beatings that the SEC has put on them…lol

    • I know the chances are extremely small for B10 expansion, but UF , Vandy and UGA seem to have similar cultural values as Big Ten schools. It would be a piercing and bold move by Delany to consider membership to those schools. It would certainly make for great theater. The academic appeal and the appeal of CIC membership would certainly cause some internal conversations.

      The annual Northwestern v Vanderbilt game would be awesome.

      • CIC membership is probably worth $100mm per year in sponsored research or more to a new member. From memory I don’t know what the ARWU ranking is for either UF or UGA. But you are correct, the academic appeal of joining the Big Ten and the CIC would be significant for UF and UGA — and they could distance themselves from “the crazies.”

        • Not to mention that it could be a near fatal blow to the SEC.

          • seriously? near fatal blow? you dont think there would be a rush to fill those spots? GA Tech would jump at the chance to replace UGA in the SEC. Vandy would be no loss, they havent done anything in the sports department in a long time. Florida would be a blow, but could be replaced. If something like this happened, I could see the SEC just going after Texas/ A&M/ Oklahoma.

            • No on thought it would be a blow when Nebraska left the Big 12 but it almost brought it down. Keep that in mind. The Big 12 is still going to fall and its only a matter of time. GA tech would not join a conference they fought so hard to get out of. Vandy is really good in bowling.

              • yeah, but that was also combined with Colorado leaving, the PAC-10 forming a super conference and the other conferences expanding also.
                As far as GA Tech, they had already made some inquiries not too long ago, before the ACC expanded, about coming back in. And previously, they were going to come back, but were stopped by UGA and Auburn.

                • ok so 2 teams left the Big 12 and it will collapse (its only a matter of time) and the SEC would lose 3 or 4 and will collapse. Same thing. Ga Tech is a joke in football anyways.

            • In this scenario, the SEC would lose its top 3 premier academic schools , a chunk of the Atlanta market, two tier 1 football programs and a recruiting base in the hotbed of Georgia/Flordia. So basically, a loss its academics, it’s biggest market and its recruiting terriory. Oklahoma and A&M couldn’t come close to filling that loss. I don’t think GT would leave the prestige of the ACC.

              • But again a scenario that those schools will never leave. I guess it could but I doubt it. To many ties plus there is no gain for them to leave for athletics. I am not saying the Big 10 is not a strong athletic conference but they would gain nothing in return and it would actually hurt them recruiting wise.

                When rumors of Texas were considering going to the Pac 10 some their recruits expressed concern that they would probably not sign with Texas because the lack of exposure from the demographic. Same thing would happen if any SEC schools left to go north. Players want to play in a conference that is heavily televised in their area. Yes Big 10 plays games on ABC or ESPN but in the south every SEC game can be seen now on TV, especially with locel TV channels picking up more and more games.

                I am not sure how the pay out works for the Big 10 but in the SEC it is equal. Why do you think Vandy likes the conference. They got the same revenue that Auburn received this year. Also I doubt very seriously UF could convince alot of FL recruits come play with us when half the games might be in the snow. You here players all the time from the south talk about one of the main reason they do not go to northern or midwestern schools is the weather. Just like the southern schools are seeing more and more players from outside the region come south.

                But from a recruiting standpoint the other schools would love it. GA players would leave the state so quick and FSU and Miami would dominate the FL recruits over UF. You have to remember college football trumps evry sport in the south even over the pro sports. Rivals begin at birth in SEC country. Families and players could care less about games vs the Big 10 except in bowl games.

                • I disagree about nothing to gain. Those schools could drastically improve their Olympic sports. Football is a wash in both quality and financially. I actually think the B10 actually has a slightly wealthier TV deal. The B10 is down now, but I doubt Mich and PSU will be down much longer. Nebraska also brings a rich tradition to the conference. Football is cyclical. The academic prestige and research dollars alone would be hard to pass for those three schools.

                  Recruiting would come down to personal preference. Personally, I think the idea of living in a warmer climate while having the ability to play a few games a year in colder climates in larger TV markets appealing. You get the best of the both worlds. Each of the three schools will have a chance to expand their demographics. In a sense, they could be considered semi-national schools

                  • I will agree on the other sports but the SEC probably offers less sports overall than any of the BCS conferences. Just a guess on my part.

                  • I think the latest I saw was that the SEC averages 2 million more per school than the Big 10.

                    Here are the SEC numbers…

                    http://blogs.forbes.com/sportsmoney/2011/01/26/whos-making-money-in-sec-football/

                    I doubt that any school is looking or would leave the SEC, but if it does I am sure there will be others that want to get in. I’m sure the schools will do what’s best for them and I don’t think any ill will would follow them because of that, at least from me…

                    • As mentioned before, the financial attractiveness of cfb are wildly overblown. If UGA joined the Big Ten and CIC (which I admit is extremely unlikely) UGA might lose a few million in tv (I have seen other links that dispute the analysis you linked), but UGA would only need to generate about 8mm more in sponsored research to break even from the move (and they probably could generate 50 to 100mm per year extra easy, with the ceiling being maybe an extra 400mm). There is no comparison in the financial attractiveness of the Big Ten and CIC vs. the SEC. None.

                    • Rich… I wasn’t saying that there wasn’t more money in the CIC… I was just posting the link to the football money made in the SEC. I think it’s about 2 million more per team than the Big 10, so not that much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.

            • TRE- you do know that Georgia Tech was once part of what is the currently the SEC, don’t you? Cuz it sure doesn’t seem like it.

              Whats even more funny is the reason why they left and went a different path. You should look it up. They wouldn’t “jump” at the chance at all.

              But don’t let history, facts and ethics get in the way of your assumptions.

      • I don’t know about joining the Big Ten, since that would bloat the conference. What about the academic association of the CIC without Big Ten membership? The University of Chicago hasn’t been a member of the Big Ten for 65 years but they’re still a CIC member. The Big Ten, and Chicago, Florida, Georgia, and Vanderbilt forming a strong academic alliance helps all those schools, and lets the SEC schools dissociate from the rest of the conference’s academics.

        • There are a lot of rumors about the Big Ten expanding to 16. If you add those three schools and Notre Dame….wow.

          • They want to add 3 Big East schools along with Notre Dame.

            • The Big East really offers nothing. If I were Delaney, I would look south.

              • I’m not talking about athletic members; if the Big Ten wants to expand that way, they want Texas and Notre Dame and nobody else. I mean academic association and nothing more.

                • If you are not talking about athletic members, then you can forget Notre Dame. Academic association (CIC) is everything about graduate programs and research and Notre Dame has nothing to add in that regard. They are a very good undergraduate institution, but that means nothing to the CIC. Frankly, sPitt would be a much better addition than ND if academics are the only consideration.

                  By the way, academics won’t be the only consideration for any expansion efforts undertaken by the Big 10.

                  • academics won’t be the only consideration for any expansion efforts undertaken by the Big 10

                    No doubt, and I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear: Athletically and academically, the Big Ten wants Texas and Notre Dame and nobody of lesser caliber as conference members (Big Ten members must be made members of the CIC; Notre Dame’s lack of research money wouldn’t prevent them from getting in it). But the CIC doesn’t have to be exclusively Big Ten, as the U of Chicago shows. The Big Ten schools and Chicago could extend CIC invitations to Vandy, UGA and Florida, and they’d probably accept.

                    • I believe U of Chicago was a full member (athletic teams) of Big 10 when the CIC was formed. I would doubt that any school would be granted access to the CIC alone. Too valuable to the Big 10 schools.

  2. “One thing is for sure, in order for oversigning to go away in the SEC you are going to have to cut the head off of the snake…”

    Seems harsh, but capital punishment just might be the right deterrent for Saban and his minions.

    • I disagree. They’ve got to dig deep to get at the roots of the problem.

      • Yes, I would agree….

        The Big 10 rule isn’t going to stop any unethical treatment of players… won’t even slow it down. I don’t see why people even think this. I think the NCAA knows this also and is working toward doing something else.

        I would hate to see grayshirts killed and would love to see the Big 10 open up their rule to allow for the use of grayshirts IF they can come up with rules that would favor the recruit. I still don’t see anything wrong with grayshirting IF the kid wants to play for that team and that team and player are willing to wait for him. I think it’s benifitial to the school and the players. I is a true ADVANTAGE over the Big 10 now… but not because of any misdoings by the SEC, but because of a strick rule by the Big 10 that puts them at a disadvantage.

        I guess, if you look at it from the NCAA point of view… it may benifit schools that have a bigger tradition or pull than other schools. Players are willing to wait to play at some schools and not willing to wait at others… I’ve never looked at it from that point of view, but I’m not sure that would change my view on it.

        Anyway, at least Josh is now starting to see that the Big 10 rule isn’t the end answer… that’s progress in itself.

        • The Big Ten does allow for grey shirting. One of the recruits for Ohio State, is a greyshirt. It was stated on signing day by Tressel that he was coming in as a greyshirt for next year and will be at a prep school this fall.

  3. I’ve always respected the way Mark Richt has run his program though I find it amazing that he’s struggling to win in the middle of one the best recruiting areas in the nation. Sounds like his boss has his back in terms of his recruiting philosophy but eventually Richt is going to need to win or he’s gone. I doubt his refusal to oversign can explain all of his under performance but it certainly hasn’t helped.

    In any event, it’s good to hear that another school is on board to push for change. I can’t imagine any of administrators in the SEC are happy with the PR hit they are taking due to the oversigning issue. I hope something positive happens in their annual meetings to address it.

    • dont count on it. The UGA AD is brand new, as the last one got caught last year with a girl in his car, her underwear in his lap, and failing a DUI (did i mention that he is married with kids)
      If Richt doesnt turn the ship around soon, there are already people making noise about replacing him.

      • good way to take attempt to take credibility away even though it has nothing to do with oversigning.

        • neither did his post. I was just letting him know that the AD at UGA is brand new and holds no loyalty to the current coach. Look all over college football, it happens everywhere.

          • Did I say he had any loyalty to the coach? I said he has his back in terms of not oversigning. It still ultimately comes down to wins and losses but in the meantime it sounds like the AD is doing what he can to level the playing field.

            • This I will agree with because it does come down to winning games bottom line. I do not see UGA worried about the ethical issue here because their concern is directly aimed about winning.

              Again for a school that does not support oversigning why did they send out more NLIs to players then they had room for. J Pagan got one on NSD but signed with UA as did X Dickson. Both talked about it in post signing interviews. T Jackson also got one but signed with FSU. UGAs budget was 26 players according to this site but they sent out 29 on NSD. What would happened if all 29 signed and faxed them in. I mean was UGA and CMR taking a gamble thinkin 3 would not, or was he doing as he quoted in the article that some knew we might to grayshirt depending on the numbers. To me that was previous obvious that UGA wanted to receive 29 NLIs which would have put them 3 over.

    • Most believe including UGA fans the only reason CMR was not fired this year is his contract had a huge buyout way up in the 7 figures but next year it is well below a million. I think he got lucky with that this year.

      Now in regards to CMR I actually think he is a good coach and if he can not turn it around this year will still be one of the top coaches being sought after. I think sometimes coaches get to a point where players stop buying into to what they are saying and the control and discipline is gone. But UGA is in great position to win the East this year.

  4. I wouldn’t use the broader term SEC East as long as USCe is a member of that group.

    • Understood, but it’s still a fair descriptor. Since Georgia, Florida, and Vandy don’t do it, South Carolina, Tennessee and Kentucky aren’t under the same pressure the SEC West schools are under to keep doing it. I’d bet you anything one of those three schools will voluntarily stop oversigning before a west school does. Mississippi State, who oversigns less than anybody else in their division but gets tarred with the same brush as Alabama, Arkansas, Auburn, Mississippi and LSU, is in an unfortunate position, but the ethical culture is still different in the two divisions.

      • What…. did UF stop oversiging this year… cause they sure have used grayshirts in the past…. Just saying…

        • Florida does not oversign, period. They do have a moderate history of greyshirting, but that’s a point of discussion not relevant to my post. Florida’s president wants to end oversigning (and greyshirting); at Georgia Mark Richt and now its AD want to end oversigning; at Vanderbilt they’ve had that mentality since Gordon Gee dissolved its athletic department. Unlike Alabama and LSU and Mississippi’s head coaches, which have been outright defiant, South Carolina and Tennessee and Kentucky’s head coaches have been quiet about oversigning. When the schools’ presidents decide to make the change, they’ll follow.

          • I’m confused… if they have a moderate history of grayshirtting… they have a moderate history of oversigning, at least according to this sites definitions…

            • Read again.

              1. Oversigning – We define oversigning on this site as the act of accepting more signed letters of intent on National Signing Day then you have room for under the 85 scholarship limit.

              5. Gray shirt – the NCAA rules state that college football players have 5 calendar years to complete 4 seasons of play. When a recruit enters the program they can defer scholarship benefits until the following calendar year. This restricts them from certain team activities, but in terms of the scholarship numbers they don’t count until the following year. Often times, coaches will ask borderline guys to take a gray shirt (if they can afford it) to free up a scholarship. This usually applies to players who would be considered tweeners between being a walk-on player or a scholarship player.

              (Pardon me if the HTML markup is done wrong)

              You CAN greyshirt without oversigning, if you have one scholarship available, and hold onto that scholarship instead of giving it to the guy you’re greyshirting. That’s what has happened at Florida.

          • When the schools’ presidents decide to make the change, they’ll follow.

            or when the SEC and/or NCAA make any rule that would limit/sop it… However, my arguement isn’t oversigning or grayshirting… it’s purging rosters by forcing transfers and/or medicals, which will need to be addressed. Oversigning (as this site refers to it) is fine as long as the recruits understand they have a grayshirt offer and are willing to wait.

            • True, the SEC and/or NCAA making rules to stop it is an option, but I don’t see the NCAA getting involved as long as the arguing is limited to one conference. As for the SEC, Mike Slive thinks the Houston Nutt rule is enough, so I don’t see SEC HQ changing things without a mandate from the university presidents. That’s the situation I’m talking about, where the school president stops it from happening at his/her school and then tries to change the rules for the conference.

              The best case scenario for a school that oversigns is that it won’t have to get its hands dirty publicly by cutting players, unlike in the Elliot Porter situation. The program has to hope that players they signed won’t qualify, or that players get arrested or flunk out or transfer suffer severe injuries. Hoping for those things is a failure of the institution to care for the well-being of its students.

              • Elliot Porter had a grayshirt offer, he could have stayed at LSU, but choose not to (although he later transfered back to LSU, so…). Anyway, what happened to him isn’t an issue of oversigning, but rather an issue of a recruiter that mislead a recruit. I would love to see that ended and there are many ways to do that… one would be to make a seperate letter for grayshirts from the current year NLI. You only have enough current year NLI to offer as you have room by your 25/85 limit and the players that are KNOWN to be leaving the program (graduation, NLF draft…). Everyone else would get a grayshirt offer which could be moved to a current year NLI… ONLY if a NLI guy signs elsewhere or doesn’t qualify.

                The information needs to be in the hands of the players and parents and let them decide what offer is best for them. Grayshirting isn’t the problem… misleading recruiters are.

  5. and i love that once again, this site aims directly at the SEC, when Staples reported that this type of thing goes on in practically every conference.

    • Tre…Its like this. Every year the SEC has a handful of teams who are pretty dominant and some who a pretty bad but every year the SEC is dubbed the most dominant conference top to bottom. This is the same with oversigning. They have the majority of teams who oversign so they are singled out more often. Plain and simple.

    • From Andy Staples’ data, seven of the thirteen schools in the nation that average more than 26 signings per year are from the SEC (all six members of the SEC West as well as Kentucky). Three schools from the Big 12 and one each from the MAC, C-USA and Sunbelt comprise the remainder of the top thirteen. The SEC, and particularly the SEC West are undeniably ground zero of this debate. It will take voices from within the SEC to avoid a continuation of the he said, she said bomb throwing match on this subject. The voices of Machen, McGarity and Richt are critical to a true examination of the process. Good article.

      • The problem again is each school has to agree on it in the conference before a rule can be passed. The SEC does not go by a majority, it has to be all or none. I will agree with Joshua here, even though it hurts just kidding, whatever they decide on there will still be some loophole to get around it. The SEC is football conference. No school will leave it because the money is to big and even the bottom programs in the conference are getting their games nationally televised. Many want the SEC to expand to get in. I just read an article where aTm are still talking with the SEC and rumors now that OU and OSU are reconsidering.

        Until the NCAA gets involved are curbs these issues and can levy a strong punishment it will not change. Now the NCAA is currently trying to address the issue with a new committee looking at ways to stop it, but I have my doubts. Right now according to the latest from the NCAA their main fous is to eliminate grayshirting all together. The NCAA feels that is a priority first.

  6. “In the case of the Alabama, Nick Saban’s 32 signings in 2008 helped create a messy 2009 offseason filled with player attrition. During that summer, at least four players were dismissed, four more went on medical scholarship, two transferred and three signees wound up grayshirting.”
    –I love this. I guess Saban must run a tougher program than any other coach in the nation. It weird how he knew exactly the amount to oversign for the attrition. Mind boggling!

    “Nobody really knows for sure how many guys we had on scholarship last year, but we didn’t have 85. I can tell you that,” Saban told reporters in Tuscaloosa. “… To criticize based on numbers when you don’t have all the facts and you don’t have all the internal information is a little premature and unfair. And for people to go on and use that against you in recruiting is even more unfair.”
    — Saban is such a good coach and cares about his athletes so much, he doesnt even know which ones are on scholarship. He is such a good coach and has a certain system in place, he doesnt even know what players he recruited to fit his system. Saban is such a smart guy, he doesnt even know how to find a list of kids they have on scholarship. I could go on and on with comments like that but I dont believe Saban is that stupid. Probably one of the stupidest comments I have ever heard in my mind from an intelligent man. WOW

    • Although, I would agree that the comment isn’t that well thought out… I do believe he was refereing to the media when he said nobody… cause I promise you the NCAA knows and the Athletic department at UofA knows….

      Anyway, I don’t think anyone is for the abuse of medicals or the forcing of transfers. Not really sure how to slow or stop that from happening, bu I don’t see the Big 10 rule doing it.

      What ideas do you have that would help the abuse of medicals or transfers?

    • I’m still waiting on that link from you supporting your claim that Alabama has issued more medical scholarships than any other conference. If you’re just going to link the Stewart Mandel article again, then please quote the portion that states that Alabama has more medical scholarships than any other conference.

      • “There are other ways of doing investigation. Take, for example, the Wall Street Journal’s inspection of the use of medical hardships and how Alabama gives out more of them than any other program. I know that rebuttals to that piece have come from all over the Alabama blogosphere, many of which came to the conclusion that the medical hardship scholarships were fair and justified.

        If that’s true, then why not investigate what it is about Alabama’s program that causes more players to become medically unfit to play football than most programs? Or is it just that Alabama’s standards are different? Are the coaches and doctors there more in tune with medical research into when to sit a player down for good? Or are the coaches just more willing to give out medical hardships than other coaches?”

        http://www.teamspeedkills.com/2011/1/28/1961333/how-to-talk-about-oversigning

        • Fascinating. It in no way validates your claim, but still fascinating. Why don’t you just admit that made a claim with nothing to back it up with?

          • it is more than any other team in any conference, what is there to read into?

            • More than any other team in any conference? That’s not what you’ve been claiming. These are all comments made by you in different blog entries:

              I still have yet so see someone put up a valid explanation of why Saban has had 13 medical hardships which is more than any conference in the same time period.

              Saban-13, more than any entire conference in the same time span

              I will ask again, can anyone who supports oversigning explain why Saban has had 12 medical hardships since he has been at Alabama? This is more than any other conference. One teams has more than an entire conference in the same time span?

              If you had stated it once, I’d be inclined to give you the benefit of doubt, but you made the same baseless claim three different times. If you’re as concerened about ethics and doing what’s right as you claim to be, then you would go back and type a retraction for each one of the baseless comments you made.

              And as for the teamspeedskills blog entry, the only source it lists is the WSJ article which never made the claim that Alabama has had more medicals than any other team. By your own admission, Nebraska has had 4 players suffer career ending injuries in the last year placing them way out in front in this year’s Medical Hardship Cup (sorry, no link).

              • there is 3 medical last year alone but over a 5 year period those are the only 3. It makes the numbers look inflated because we had one STARTER who suffers concussions so his family made him quit. I am sure Pelini got rid of a starter to make room for a freshman. The other is in the playing rotation at 2 deep at LB. The other is a TE who sees significant playing time. READ AGAIN. 3 in a 5 year period but just happened to have 3 in one year.

    • [It's] weird how he knew exactly the amount to oversign for the attrition. Mind boggling!

      Mind boggling for you perhaps, but it seems fairly simple to me – offer grayshirts to however many “over budget” you are, and upgrade them to the current class to fill the attrition that occurs between signing day and fall enrollment. Bama seems to be 9 or 10 over right now, but you will find that after the attrition that occurs this spring and summer, there will be the exact number of grayshirts to make up the rest. Kind of the way this works – where’s the problem?

      As for the second part of that post, it has been covered and discussed in an earlier thread – Saban was not talking about himself, but rather people like you and Joshua who think you know where Bama’s scholarships are, and who base their criticisms on these assumptions.

      • Alabama is going to lose 10 Scholarship athletes to attrition this year to make it back down to 85. Im pretty sure, in the last 4 years Nebraska hasnt lost 10 to attrition. Thats 4 years, NOT ONE! Your post is funny.

        • Also, at a public University (Alabama), why do they have to disclose salaries of the coaching staff but not the recruiting BUDGET? Or as Alabama should call it, “how many recruits are we gonna oversign this year” budget.

        • Jaivorio Burkes
          Patrick Witt
          Quentin Castille
          Justin Rogers
          John Levorson
          Collins Okafor
          Blake Lawrence
          Matt Holt
          Ryan Hill
          Dreu Young
          Dontrayevous Robinson
          Faron Klingelhoefer

          That’s 12 from the last 2 years.

          • Jaivorio Burkes (was a starter! Heart murmurs ended his football career. You digging deep because this was like 6 years ago.)
            Patrick Witt (transfer for whatever reason 3 seasons ago, coaching change, buried in the depth chart and never would have played.)
            Quentin Castille (kicked off the team for being caught with maryjuanna *check the Lincoln police report) http://ncaafootball.fanhouse.com/2009/08/22/quentin-castille-breaks-team-rules-gets-booted-off-nebraska-ros/

            Justin Rogers (coaching change, transfer. so there is ONE transfer even though Nebraska was NOT oversigned)
            John Levorson (quit football and still at the University of Nebraska paying his own way) http://www.facebook.com/people/John-Levorson/502140521
            Collins Okafor (Left the team for 2 days and is currently on the roster. He left his freshman year and came back. Not likely to be a starter but he is a team favorite for his jokes) NICE TRY!
            Blake Lawrence ( posted the link earlier. Chronic concussion and he told his family if he got one more he promised to quit. He did.)
            Matt Holt (link also posted earlier. Major injuries and is on Medical hardship but remains with the team as a student coach)
            Ryan Hill (Posted link earlier. Medical hardship. Whats your point?)
            Dreu Young (Is a senior, is on course to graduate. Whats you point?)
            Dontrayevous Robinson (Also posted link. He is a big pounding back and he didnt fit in the spread offense in which Nebraska is transition to. Coaches begged him to stay but he wanted to play with his HS quarterback in a better fit of an offense.)
            Faron Klingelhoefer (Battled injuries and is still on the team and will be in the normal 2 deep rotation. He is currently a walk on with a chance to earn a scholarship. NICE TRY! http://nebraska.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=928&CID=1185839

            I cited all my sources. You posted 3 years of attrition for Nebraska in what Alabama and LSU have in one year WHILE oversigned. Thanks for backing this site and what they claim. Also, you sources are very flawed since you listed 2 players who are still with the team. One who is a walk on and one who left the team for 2 days and the coaching staff talked him into coming back 2 years ago. Nice try on those.

            • This is the commonn defense by posters as yourself. These are no different in regards to what happened at UA and many links have been posted for the type of removals at UA, but yet you want to defend it at Nebraska but call it out at UA. Sorry that is not how it works.

              I do not care if UA oversigned during the time players left or that Nebraska did not. The concern is with your assumption that you use to make an opinion you like to state as fact. Their is no difference but you like to claim they had to be malicious because UA oversigned. But yet nowhere have you provided a link or this site that they were.

              It must be nice in your world, but in reality the truth is not your opinion. Nice try though.

            • I have no doubt that you know more about Nebraska’s personnel than me, but I do disagree on a couple of things.

              Burkes – left the team 1 year ago not 6 years ago according to this article: http://huskerextra.com/sports/football/article_88463d8e-0e28-5f73-a474-b2148f17a839.html

              Witt – transferred 2 years ago not 3 years ago: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3927094

              Klingelhoefer – not listed on Nebraska’s roster and no longer part of the team acccording to this: http://huskerextra.com/sports/football/article_7fd28ec4-f83a-11df-99d1-001cc4c03286.html. Don’t know if he was on scholly or a walk-on since Pellini hasn’t given me his list of scholly players.

              Take away Okafor and it’s still 11 players in 2 years and that doesn’t even include academic non-qualifiers and grayshirts which will account for some of Alabama’s attrition.

              You have an explanation for every player who has left Nebraska’s team. Guess what? I have an explanation for every player that has left Alabama’s team. If you’re going to assume and claim that Alabama’s players were forced out to make room for incoming players, then I’m free to assume/claim that Nebraska is forcing out players before NSD so that they can sign more players without oversigning.

              • It is 3 years. Burkes was a starter until the heart condition. He has been off the team before Pelini. Pelini has completed 3 full season. Hence, 3 years ago. Witt transfered when Pelini was hired. 3 years ago. Klingelhoefer apparently quit, he wasnt on scholarship so it has nothing to do with oversigning AT ALL. You are pulling kids from the last 3 years and it still doesnt add up to even close to the amount of attrition. You must be out of your mind if you are comparing Nebraska’s attrition to Alabama. You pulled all the players Nebraska has lost in the last 3 years since Pelini was hired and it still doesn’t equal what Alabama did last year alone. On non academic qualifiers…Nebraska has not had 1 who has signed in the last 3 years. NONE. Braylon Heard hasn’t signed yet because he couldn’t qualify academically. They are still holding a scholly open for him in hopes he will qualify this spring. Noel Devine, have you heard of him? He was gonna come to Nebraska but he couldn’t qualify so he was not offered a scholarship so he went to West Virginia.
                Soccer,
                This is just funny:
                “I do not care if UA oversigned during the time players left or that Nebraska did not. The concern is with your assumption that you use to make an opinion you like to state as fact. Their is no difference but you like to claim they had to be malicious because UA oversigned. But yet nowhere have you provided a link or this site that they were.”

                Nebraska has had an average attrition of 3.66666 per season with the information Vesper posted. Nebraska was NEVER oversigned so there was no need to run off starters or people in the 2 deep to make room for the “new crop” coming in. Alabama had 11 in one year to make room for the “new crop” whether you like it or not.

                PLAYER POSITION REASON FOR LEAVING OR NOT BEING APART OF 2010 ROSTER
                Terry Grant Running Back Scholarship not renewed, graduated, quit football, might get a medical hardship scholarship
                Travis Sikes Wide Receiver Scholarship not renewed, graduated, not good enough to see the field
                Darius McKeller Offensive Lineman Medical Hardship Scholarship
                Star Jackson Quarterback Transfer, Georgia State Div 1AA.
                Deion Belue Defensive Back Academically Ineligible; headed to JUCO
                Taylor Pharr Offensive Lineman Medical Hardship Scholarship
                Milton Talbert Linebacker Medical Hardship Scholarship
                Rod Woodson Safety Scholarship not renewed; removed from team
                Ronnie Carswell Wide Receiver Greyshirt; healthy and eligible
                Wilson Love Defensive End Greyshirt; injured, eligible
                Alfy Hill Linebacker Academically Ineligible; future unknown

                Keep in mind, the 11 Vesper posted were loses due to a coaching change. I know both you guys have enough sense to not even question the fact how a coaching change will effect attrition. New staff and some recruits will want to transfer. Hell, Ndamukong Suh put in his transfer request but later withdrew it! I am pretty sure Pelini was not trying to drive him off to make room for a “new crop”.

                We can go back and forth all day. The fact is Nebraska refused to oversign and at NO time did they ever have 10 oversigned/grayshirts waiting in the wing for….. “natural Alabama attrition” as you like to claim.

                • Oh and by the way. Those numbers are actually 10 divided by 3 years which is 3.33333 in 3 years WITH a coaching change.

                  As I posted earlier.
                  Dreu Young is a senior and exhausted all his edibility.This means he played all his years he could play. He was NOT a medical, transfer or anything. HE GRADUATED so there are 10 total in 3 years. WOW. Huge numbers.

                  • Would you quit with the 3 years b.s.? Every single player I listed left the team sometime withiin the last 24 months. 24 months divided by 12 months in a year equals 2 years.

                    • oh really? I am pretty sure Bo Pelini has been at Nebraska for 3 years. He came in during recruiting 3 years ago. Justin Rodgers was in his first recruiting class. Rodgers made it to lincoln for a month and then left. Burkes was not playing under Callahan’s last year (pretty sure that was 3 years ago since Pelini has been at Nebraska for 3 seasons), Witt was 2 years ago. I am sure he was forced out when he was supposed to compete for the starting position. http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3927094
                      I guess I didnt know about Faron Klingelhoefer but he is a walk-on so nonetheless. I am pretty sure Pelini did “get rid” of him to make room for another scholarship.

                      so yeah that is 9 (minus Klingelhoefer because he was a walk on) in a 3 year time span.

                    • Bo Pelini has been at Nebraska for 3 years. That in no way changes the fact that each of the players that I listed left the program within the last 24 months. Do you really want me to dig back another year? Because I will.

                    • Vesper,
                      I am not using Bo being there 3 years as an excuse, I am using it to establish a time line. That is all plain and simple. You have pulled guys from a 3 year time LINE.

                      No, not everyone on that list left in a 24 month period. Burkes and Rodgers were three years. Witt was 2 years ago.

                      So edit your list and remove these names because they have nothing to do with this. Okafor is still on the team. Young was injuried, chose to not take a medical redshirt or hardship BUT REMAINED ON ATHLETIC SCHOLARSHIP through his senior year. Faron is a walk-on. Doesnt count toward scholarship.

                      Collins Okafor
                      Dreu Young
                      Faron Klingelhoefer

                      Yes please did back a FOURTH year. You have already done it to the THIRD year.

                    • Burkes left the team Jan 6, 2010 (I’ve already posted the link). His health may have prevented him from playing prior to that, but he left the team on Jan 6, 2010. Just like with Prothro at Alabama. He broke his leg in 2005, but Josh lists him as going on medical in 2007, therefore he counts as one of “12 medical hardships in the last 4 years”. Same standard.

                      Rogers left the team Feb 27, 2009. 2 years ago not 3 years ago.
                      http://huskerextra.com/sports/football/article_034e6ca5-70e2-5925-ab64-d9fd43cdf53f.html

                      I have not been counting Okafor in any of my NU attrition numbers since you pointed out that he rejoined the team. I will post a retraction when you go back and post a retraction for each of the 3 times that you claimed that Alabama had more medicals than any other conference. Same standard.

                      Young wasn’t good enough for medical redshirt year. I have never claimed that he was put on medical hardship, but I will continue to say that his career ended due to injury because that is true.

                      I have been unable to find anything stating that Faron was a walk-on. You can blame NU. If they issued a list of which players are on scholly and which are walk-on’s this wouldn’t be an issue. Same standard.

                • Actually Joshua does not think it should be an excuse. Him and I went back and forth on that last year. Because if you look back the 2008 UA class which is actually the first full class he recruited, because in 2007 most of those that signed with UA were recruited by Shula since Saban did not arrive until Jan 2007.

                  So based on your assesment the 32 CNS recruited in 2008 you have no issues with it because of the previous year coaching change. Atleast someone from the other side finally agrees that a caoching change will result in higher attrition.

                  • ok. again you are comparing apples to oranges. Nebraska did not oversign to make up for this attrition. I guess they are just not good enough coaches to predict the exact attrition in the coaching change like Saban supposedly was able to do. You are not making a comparable point here. We are not in agreement in this. Signing 32 does not account for for a coaching change.

                • It looks like you want one standard for counting attrition at Alabama and a totally different standard for counting attrition at Nebraska. First of all, it doesn’t really matter when Pellini took over, it is still Nebraska attrition. There was a lot of attrition in 2007 at Alabama when Saban took over too, and it gets used against Saban all the time. Secondly, Witt trasferred 2 years ago, Burkes left the team 1 year ago, not 3 years ago as you keep insisting. I provided the links, so this shouldn’t even be a debate. Finally, Nebraska had 2 players last year who signed NLIs according to husker.com and Rivals but failed to qualify (Chase Harper, Braylon Heard).

                  To illustrate what I mean about using the same standards for Nebraska and Alabama, I will make my own list of Nebraska attrition similar to the Alabama list that you borrowed from Josh, misleading terms and all.

                  2010 Nebraska attrition:
                  Jaivorio Burkes – Scholarship not renewed, quit football, might get a medical hardship scholarship (Jan. 6, 2010)
                  Bronson Marsh – Grayshirt, healthy and eligible
                  Chase Harper – Academically Ineligible; JUCO
                  Braylon Heard – Academically Ineligible; attempting to qualify
                  Blake Lawrence – Medical Hardship Scholarship
                  Matt Holt – Medical Hardship Scholarship
                  Ryan Hill – Medical Hardship Scholarship
                  Dreu Young – Injured before senior year. Not good enough to warrant medical redshirt
                  Dontrayevous Robinson – Transfer, Montana St. Div 1AA
                  Faron Klingelhoefer – Quit the Team. May or may not have been on scholarship

                  10 players in one year? That means that Nebraska got to sign 19 players on NSD instead of 9 players. “But they didn’t oversign” Tell that to the 10 former players who were kicked to the curb to make room for the new recruits.

                  • WOW! WOW! youre really stretching here.

                    March 2009
                    “Perhaps even more important is news that junior offensive lineman Jaivorio Burkes will miss the entire spring with a medical condition. Burkes, who started four games for NU in 2008, had issues with his blood pressure before last season.” Burkes never played or practiced again since the end of last season since this was in the spring and he wasnt able to participate. This would have dated back to Dec. 08. Thanks for playing.
                    –Bronson Marsh is on the team, on scholarship. This means he is taking up ONE scholarship to you.
                    –Chase Harper was recruited but NEVER SIGNED. HE NEVER SIGNED, HE NEVER SIGNED so this is not attrition.
                    –Braylon Heard NEVER SIGNED, STILL ISNT SIGNED and his trying to qualify for Nebraska. Oh and take away the extra scholly because they are holding 1 scholarship open for him, hence the reason why they are at 84. I have stated this many times on this site. Go ahead and try and twist it all you want but Nebraska is holding 1 scholly open for him.
                    –Blake Lawrence – Medical Hardship Scholarship CORRECT
                    –Matt Holt – Medical Hardship Scholarship CORRECT
                    –Ryan Hill – Medical Hardship Scholarship CORRECT
                    –Dreu Young – “Injured before senior year. Not good enough to warrant medical redshirt” WOW dude. This is just a redic statement. Young was injured the season of 2009 requiring back surgery, chose not to pursue a medical redshirt BUT remained on athletic scholarship for 2010. http://nebraska.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=928&CID=1051240
                    –Robinson did transfer
                    – Faron Klingelhoefer quit team because of injuries, was NOT on scholarship because he was a walk-on. http://nebraska.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=928&CID=1051240

                    So a list of the players you list, 5 are because attrition. Burkes was not with the team in 2010 at all so we are down to 4. 4 in one year with a rash of medicals. I know what you are going to say….. Well that looks just like Alabama but it DOESNT. Nebraska has had 3 in 4 years, Alabama has had 12 in 4 years. Alabama had a total of 13 players from attrition last year, Nebraska has 4. You have no argument here at all.

                    • just to be clear, Chase Harper NEVER signed with Nebraska because he was unable to graduate JUCO at the time. Braylon Heard is still trying to get cleared by the NCAA clearinghouse butNebraska has one scholly open for him when/if he does.

                    • Oh, so all we have to do is provide an explanation and we can remove someone’s name from the list? I didn’t know that.

                      - Terry Grant had been a heavy contributor for each of the previous 3 years. He had numerous injury problems and had already earned his degree and decided not to play his 5th year. Wasn’t on the team in 2010.
                      - Travis Sikes had earned his degree and was buried on the depth chart and chose not to play his 5th year. Wasn’t on the team in 2010.
                      -Darius McKeller – Medical (correct)
                      -Star Jackson did transfer
                      -Deion Belue is in JUCO set to join team in 2012
                      -Taylor Pharr Medical (correct)
                      -Milton Talbert Medical (correct)
                      -Rod Woodson broke team rules and chose to transfer rather than stay and deal with his punishment. Was considered the frontrunner to win a starting position when he left.
                      -Ronnie Carswell is on the team, on scholarship. This means he is taking up ONE scholarship to you.
                      -Wilson Love is on the team, on scholarship. This means he is taking up ONE scholarship to you.
                      -Alfy Hill is in JUCO set to join team in 2012.

                      I’ve got news for you, Harper and Heard both signed NLI’s on NSD. I don’t know where you’re getting your information but NU Media Relations listed both of them in Nebraska’s post-NSD press release. A university isn’t allowed to even mention a recruit’s name until after he signs an NLI much less put his name in an official press release: http://www.huskers.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=100&ATCLID=204879091
                      Rivals also shows them both as having signed NLI’s: http://rivals.yahoo.com/alabama/football/recruiting/commitments/2010/nebraska-23

                      So, this is exactly what I was talking about. You want the attrition tally to be 4 for Nebraska and 11 for Alabama and you apply different standards to achieve those results. But if we use the same standard for both schools, it is either 10 for Nebraska and 11 for Alabama or 6 for Nebraska (3 Medicals, 1 transfer, 2 non-qualifiers) and 6 for Alabama (3 Medicals, 1 transfer, 2 non-qualifiers). I know you will never accept it since it doesn’t jive with your notion of Nebraska=good, Alabama=bad, but there is basically the same amount and type of attrition at both schools.

                    • Its because you dont even read and listen.
                      –Harper didnt even graduate JUCO. How is he supposed to come to Nebraska if he didnt graduate JUCO first.
                      –Heard DID NOT QUALIFY but they are still HOLDING a scholarship for him if/when he qualifies. (HERE IS 1 SCHOLLY)
                      –Okafor He is on the damn team and you have him listed here.
                      –Faron, He is a walk on for christ sake and you have him listed on this as possibly taking a medical hardship. WTF.

                      I am not trying to justify any of this. The ones that transfered, left. The one who got kicked off for many documented crimes (Castillo) is gone.

                      Dreu Young should not even be on there. He got hurt, hung it up and remained on athletic scholarship. READ AGAIN, HE TOOK UP A SCHOLARSHIP FROM THE TEAM FOR HIS REMAINING YEAR OF eligibility. You took all these players and listed them from a THREE year time span.

                    • you had 4 guys on the list who shouldnt have been there because of evidence and documentation, NOT my opinion.

                      Harper was not a sign and place. He was coming out of JUCO and didnt graduate JUCO.

                      Nebraska did have 3 medical hardships this year, no doubt but that is the only 3 they have had in a 5 year time span. In the same comparison Saban has had 12 in 4 years while Alabama was oversigned and needed to make room on their roster. Bottom line. When Nebraska becomes a main focus about oversigning, transfers and medical harships we will revisit this topic but until then….When the national media provides evidence against Nebraska for unethical behavior as they have against Alabama we will revisit but until then…..

                    • What part of same standard for both schools do you not understand? Prothro broke his leg in horrific fashion in 2005 – six years ago. 1.5 years before Saban was even hired by Alabama yet you count him as one of Alabama’s “12 medical hardships in the last 4 years”

                      -Okafor: I have not counted him in any numbers about Nebraska attrition since you pointed out that he rejoined the team. I will post a retraction when you go back and post retractions each of the 3 times you claimed that Alabama had more medicals than any other conference.

                      -Heard and Harper: Do you have links proving that they didn’t sign? Because I have pretty solid evidence indicating that they did sign (huskers.com and Rivals). If they didn’t sign did Nebraska self-report itself for at least 6 recruiting violations by talking about and listing the names of unsigned recruits? Harper even has his own bio page on the official Nebraska website!

                      -Young: Not good enough to warrant a medical redshirt year. That is exactly what Josh would claim if it was an Alabama player. Same standard

                      -Faron: I’ve been unable to find anything showing that Faron is a walk-on. If Pellini issued a list of which players were on scholly and which were walk-ons, then we wouldn’t have this problem so I blame Pellini – same standard.

    • I think he was referring to no one outside the program, nice try though. Also maybe he did know prior to NSD which ones were not returning. The players that were dismissed were trying to appeal their dismissal in the spring but it was denied. There was an artlcle about that.

    • You must not read my other post. So I ask you do you have an issue with several attempts by Nebraska to maje their football players professionals and create an unfair advantage in recruiting to win on the field? Or do have issues with the unethical behavior of Nebraska football players in 2005 when they headlined both OTL and 20/20. Or the all the off field behavior issues associated with the 95 team and how people called out your staff for kicking off players that did not get arrested to save face but allowed ones who were to stay on so they could win?

      Now if you tell you do not condone any of that I will applaud you but if you came back and say you support it or try to defend it that just shows have double standards. It is alright for your team do wrong but quick to point out another.

    • Also, I’d still like to know what constitutes an acceptable level of attrition. You quoted the part of the article that talks about Alabama’s attrition, but we have nothing to compare it to. So, let’s take a look at the attrition so far at your school (Nebraska) and the school being praised in this blog entry (Georgia).

      Nebraska: 3 medicals, 1 transfer, 1 quit football with eligibility remaining

      Georgia: 2 dismissals, 2 transfers, 1 medical, and 1 quit with eligibility remaining

      Aren’t those numbers a little high? And that’s just through mid-February.

      • I would like you to list the athletes you are talking about. I can put up any numbers I want about any school and it doesnt mean shit unless you state your source.

        • Transfer: Robinson transfered because he is a big pounding back and Nebraska runs the spread. The coaches did everything they could to keep him but… link below.
          http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/sports/bobcats/article_5043f166-195a-11e0-b057-001cc4c03286.html

          Medicals: Blake Lawrence has suffered many times from concussion dating back to highschool where they are well documented……. link below
          http://www.1011now.com/home/headlines/68122917.html
          Matt Holt was put on medical scholarship but remains with the team as a student coach. Read the link below and tell me he was not fit for a medical hardship.
          http://www.huskers.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=100&ATCLID=1515267
          Dreu Young has had chronic back injuries and decided to hang it up. He was not a stater but he was in the 2 deep rotation seeing alot of playing time, beating out TE’s who are no in the 2 deep.
          http://nebraska.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1177325

          I am still wondering who the athlete is who quit with eligibility remaining? The fact is. Nebraska had 3 med hardships in one year but that is out of the norm. The thing that really sticks out to me is….their roster was NOT oversigned so there was no need to make room for players on the Aug. 1st deadline. Do you get it yet. Nebraska legendary coach and current athletic director Tom Osborne has gone public stating, Nebraska does and WILL NOT oversign. Its pretty simple really.

          • I would not use Osborne as a example of great character here.

          • The thing that really sticks out to me is….their roster was NOT oversigned so there was no need to make room for players on the Aug. 1st deadline

            True, but if they hadn’t had all that attrition, they wouldn’t have been able to sign as many players as they did. Might not have had room for Todd Peat. Fortunate how that worked out.

            • haha. This is just amusing. Todd Peat was the #1 DT on the board and had a spot reserved for him the entire time. Good try.

              • Try telling Josh that Mark Ingram and Marcell Dareus had spots reserved for them in Alabama’s 2008 recruiting class:

                This leads us to wonder, had oversigning been banned from college football entirely, would Mark Ingram and Marcel Dareus be at Alabama right now?

                Just keeping with the theme of using the same standard for Alabama as other teams like Nebraska.

                • I do NOT at all think they were reserving a spot for a 3 star runningback not highly recruited by many big programs or a 3 star in state DT also not too highly recruited. It is on record as saying Peat was the #1 DT on their recruiting board and there would be a spot reserved for him.

                  • besides Nebraska wasnt oversigned when Peat signed/committed.

                  • As a wise man once said:

                    i dont really care about star rankings. Roy Helu was a 3 star and he ended up being Nebraska’s all time leading rusher. Martinez was not highly recruited 3 star but he was recruited at a different position other than QB EXCEPT for Nebraska. They gave him a chance and he may pan out. He needs to stay healthy and we will see. Green was a 4 star but he is not a good qb. IMO he needs to switch positions. You guys know as much as I know stars really dont matter

                    Yet you think that Alabama would not have held a spot for Ingram or Dareus because of the number of stars a recruiting website put beside their names.

        • No problem. My source for Nebraska numbers is your comments in the Oversigning Cup. My source for Georgia’s numbers is Texas_Dawg’s comments in the Oversigning Cup.

          Nebraska:
          Blake Lawrence – medical
          Matt Holt – medical
          Ryan Hill – left team/possible medical
          Dreu Young – left team/possible medical*
          Dontrayevous Robinson – transfer
          Faron Klingelhoefer – left team/possible medical**

          *candidate for 6th year of eligibility
          **Source huskerextra not BetterRed. May or may not be on sholarship. I don’t know since Pellini hasn’t given me his list of which players are on scholarship and which ones aren’t

          Georgia:
          D. Baker – dismissal
          M. Dowtin – dismissal
          N. Williams – transfer
          L. Gray – transfer
          J. Owens – medical
          T. Strickland – left team/possible medical*

          *Source is georgia.scout.com not Texas_Dawg

          • Soccer,
            Really? Really dude? Dont use Osborne as a great character here? You have got to be kidding me. That is just laughable. AND what did the 95 team do where you so call the staff to kick players off or whatever you said. Where is the link to back up this accusation?

            • No problem. My source for Nebraska numbers is your comments in the Oversigning Cup.
              Nebraska:
              Blake Lawrence – medical (TRUE)
              Matt Holt – medical (TRUE)
              Ryan Hill – left team/possible medical (TRUE)
              Dreu Young – left team/possible medical* (HE IS A SENIOR)
              Dontrayevous Robinson – transfer (TRUE)
              Faron Klingelhoefer – left team/possible medical** (NO. He is still on the team)
              *candidate for 6th year of eligibility
              **Source huskerextra not BetterRed. May or may not be on sholarship. I don’t know since Pellini hasn’t given me his list of which players are on scholarship and which ones aren’t.

              Mike Smith is the candidate for a medical REDSHIRT because he broke his femur this year.)

              You are way off dude and I explained it all above.

              • oh and did I mention….. while this attrition was happening at NO time was Nebraska at their full scholarship allotment nor were they OVERSIGNED!

                • Are you saying that as long as a team does not oversign you have no issue if the attrition is malicious. Just curious because that is what you seem to be implying.

                  • open your ears. Nebraska is at 84 scholarships right now. The coaches have publicly came out with their recruiting budget for next year already. It RIGHT NOW includes the departing seniors. Its pretty simple. They are not going to get rid of kids to take a bigger class. Pelini was always questions as a recruiter when he was at LSU because of the shady dealing in the SEC. Im sure it is more and LSU issue. It is on record. You find it because I am not.

            • Really I guees you do not follow your team very well. He gets called out by the nedia for the number arrestes that year so he kicks off players that never got arrested.

              …..So many arrests were done that coach Tom Osborne was reduced to defending his discipline by revealing that he had kicked off his team some players who had not actually been arrested…..

              But yet here is a starter he needed to win that was arrested for sexual assualt but he felt he desreved a 2nd chance and guess what 6 weeks after he is arrested again. Lets keep him on the team because we need him.

              ……As for using players familiar to the police, Osborne said, “My philosophy is that if I view a player who has redeeming qualities and can make something of his life, then I’ll try to work with him and give him a chance. But if he doesn’t follow through on that chance, then he will have to be gone.”

              One player who must have impressed Osborne with the richness of his redeeming qualities was 29-pound defensive lineman Christian Peter, the team’s co-captain and All-Big Eight star. Peter earned those laurels while on probation after pleading no contest in 1993 to a charge of third-degree sexual assault against a former Miss Nebraska. Alas, six weeks after the Fiesta Bowl, his redeeming qualities might have been exhausted. He was arrested again for third-degree assault after allegedly grabbing a woman by the neck……

              Just like L Phillips. Suspend him but decide you are not that bad right before the Fiesta bowl.

              …….Osborne also gave Lawrence Phillips another chance. The great running back assaulted his girlfriend. By her hair, he dragged her down stairs. Osborne first kicked Phillips off the team; then, thinking it over and discovering redeeming qualities in his star, the coach changed the penalty to a six-game suspension which, by sheer coincidence, surely, ended in time for a bowl game……

              http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_n38_v220/ai_18679029/?tag=content;col1

              ……At Nebraska, a program rocked by off-field scandal the past two years, an Omaha World-Herald study revealed 13.2 percent of the 129 players on the Cornhuskers’ 1995 Orange Bowl roster were arrested for misdemeanor or alcohol-related offenses since entering school. Conversely, only six percent of a random sample of 300 non-football undergraduate male students at the school had been arrested in the same time span for identical offenses…..

              http://www.thefreelibrary.com/COLLEGE+FOOTBALL+CRIMINALS+%3A+VARIOUS+INCIDENTS+INVOLVING+DIVISION+I…-a083853437

              In 1995 and 1996, the University of Nebraska won consecutive football championships with a starting lineup that included players charged with sexual assault, theft, assault and unlawfully firing a gun at an unoccupied vehicle. One reserve player had been indicted for attempted murder.

              What those articles tells me is Osborne was only concerned about winning and nothing else. Nice to pick and choose which players to kick from the team based on who is going to help you win and who is not. That is ethical to say the least, just kidding. I wonder what the 3 players booted from the team that seem to be in the minority for not getting arrested would say about this. I bet if the WSJ did an piece it probably would not be to favorable for Nebraska.

              Now you will defend this but sorry it would just be a homer defense trying to justify why Nebraska needed to win at all cost.

            • Wow, you need to learn your history. Are you that young that you don’t know about Lawrence Phillps?

              • Chuy,
                are you that stupid to assume I dont know?
                Soccer,
                Funny how you put up the alcohol related offenses….Im sure you were a college kid who never drank. WOW. Diggin deep there Tex. Nebraska did not need Lawrence Phillips to win a title.

                Im not even going to waste my time on this garbage. It has nothing to do with oversigning and you have 2 cases in a coaches 31 year career to try and take away credibility. I believe Tom Osborne is the must trustworthy, genuine good person I have ever met and it is kinda offending how you actually try and attack him. Good riddance!

                • See that is the problem. You are quick to point a when other coaches do something unethical to win at all costs but here you defend it because it is your school.

                  Oversigning you have said and others is a competative advantage that serves coaches such as Saban who want to win at all cost even if it results in hurting the player or the image of the school. Tell me how Nebraska did not get hammered in the press that year because of how Osbourne did what ever it took to win. How is it not unethical to kick 3 players off the team that were not arrested and not starters, but keep players who were arrested because they were starters.

                  Remember Oversigning is not violating rules but the concern as posters like yourself have stated it is about the unethical practice that needs to be addressed.

                  • round and round we go…. You picked out 2 players in the last 16 years. It is very applicable. The legendary Osborne coached for 31 years and you can bring up 2 cases of this happening. Wow you really have something here.

  7. vesper, the main difference between schools like Georgia having medicals and quitters vs schools like LSU, Ole Miss or Alabama, is that when this has happened at Georgia recently it was OBVIOUSLY the player’s choice, and they were about to or had ALREADY GRADUATED from the school they signed with. We’re talking about players that Richt and the school stood behind 100% for 3-4 years, even though they clearly were not blue chip, SEC caliber players. Yet they still got their degree from Georgia and moved on of their own volition.

    As for SoccerMike and the reason a couple extra NLI’s were sent out on NSD, gotta imagine part of that was for the two or three players already on the verbal list who were highly likely to be enrolled at JuCo’s or Prep Schools for the next year or two. Not to mention how said commitments were just that, only “verbal” til that point anyway… Georgia has been burned by a couple kids on the past couple NSD’s so it isn’t like those verbals are always 100% locks, already in the bank. It’s always gonna be a bit of a numbers, guessing game… but only a fool would lump a man like Richt & UGA in with that unethical, win at all costs lot over in the SEC West.

    Just look what’s going on in Alabama this week, FFS… I’m more embarrassed FOR them than by them. Cawlij Footbaw, it’s SRS BZNZ!

    • Oh, and as for some of the other scenarios, transfers or dismissals, isn’t it funny how those tend to go from East to West, too? Georgia’s admission’s committee can be a nightmare, yet when Michael Grant or Jamar Chaney types tried to sign with yet weren’t admitted by UGA, Richt went to bat for them and guess where they ended up?! That’s right, Arkansas & Mississippi State, respectively. And good for them, don’t have a big problem with that…

      But even the trouble makers kicked out of Eastern schools usually find their way West as well… just ask Auburn about their innocent little misunderstood angel Cam Newton, or listen to the LSU fans tout incoming QB Zach Roethlisberger, err, I mean Mettenberger. Kicked out of the East? Welcomed with open arms in the West! Just give em a minute to make room for ya…

      • …it was OBVIOUSLY the player’s choice…

        Yes, I’m sure. No way that Richt would entice a guy to transfer before NSD to make room for recruits, right? What evidence do you have (other than your rivalistic bias against Bama and other SECw schools) that there is anything amiss with this attrition. The attrition discussed in this thread was influenced by remaining players from the Mike Shula era. Is it not very common to see higher instances of departures after a coaching turn over? Is this not somehting to be expected? Saban came in with a much stricter belief in terms of discipline, and that clashed with a lot of the existing players on roll.

        If I recall, one of the players receiving a medical hardship that was interviewed in the WSJ article had already graduated, and was getting the medical for part of his graduate studies since he still had eligability left. Didn’t hear anyone defending Bama for that then.

        gotta imagine part of that was for the two or three players already on the verbal list who were highly likely to be enrolled at JuCo’s or Prep Schools … Georgia has been burned by a couple kids on the past couple NSD’s so it isn’t like those verbals are always 100% locks, already in the bank. It’s always gonna be a bit of a numbers, guessing game… but only a fool would lump a man like Richt & UGA in with that unethical, win at all costs lot over in the SEC West

        Let’s take a look at your statements and see who is being ethical and who is not. What happens when those 2 or 3 JuCo guys unexpectedly qualify? Happened to Miles last year and he ended up screwing over one of his guys – changing his offer to a grayshirt after the fact. That was wrong – are you suggesting that Richt put his team in that same possibility? Since Ga has been burned in the past by some recruits, are you saying it’s ok to offer more LOIs than you are willing to accept? What happens when more accept them? Do you then say, “sorry, we don’t have room, we’re not accepting your LOI”? Assuming that Richt learned from the Miles fiasco last year, we can hope that he had a plan for the JuCo guys qualifying, and judging by his character, we hope that he wouldn’t deny a LOI once he sent it out. These being the case, we can only assume that Richt had a plan to grayshirt a couple of guys had everyone accepted their offers and qualified. If he didn’t, then he is wrong and he is the unethical one. I don’t care if the numbers worked out for him this year, he’s playing with fire if he’s doing what you describe. So which is it? Did Richt offer grayshirts or did he recruit unethically? If I’m missing something here, please share it.

        Now, look at Saban’s recruits. There has never been an instance of one of his recruits not knowing he would be asked to grayshirt, and evidence is out there that he lets them know well before NSD if this is a possibility. Show me where this unethical behavior at Alabama lies, because it hasn’t been done yet. Don’t back it up with what you think is going on, that doesn’t fly.

        • Georgia doesn’t offer grayshirts…

          http://atlanta.sbnation.com/georgia-bulldogs/2011/1/24/1954081/georgia-recruiting-xzavier-ward-xzavier-dickson-dream-team

          Right…. Never happened, nothign to see here.. move on.

          Again, I don’t have any issues with Grayshirts… but if you think UGA and UF are not doing it… you’re smoking something. To hear the UF president say how bad it is… is laughable…

          http://findarticles.com/p/news-articles/palm-beach-post/mi_8163/is_20101106/dwyers-brissett-rejects-uf-%7Bheadline2%7D/ai_n56217547/

          • Please refrain from using articles that present fact when pointing out that someones opinion is not a fact. It will get you nowhere on here.

            • I have NEVER heard on here that Georgia doesnt offer greyshirts. They dont oversign. Big difference.

              • no… oversigning is grayshriting. Every grayshirt in the SEC is offered and signs a NLI to my knowledge, which is what this site calls oversigning… According to your thinking, Alabama doesn’t over sign… cause Alabama does make those extra offers as grayshirts and has said so many times. They don’t hide the grayshirt offer from the kids.

                I don’t know how many over the “budget” Alabama is at right now, but let’s say it is 9. They have 9 guys sitting there with grayshirt offers and those kids know it. Saban tells them, in my opinion (and his words and the recruits words).

                Now, what you (I’m guessing) don’t like is if Saban runs kids out or trys to make them take medicals to make room from some of those grayshirts to make it into this current class… If that’s going on, then it is wrong, but Alabama has never NOT told a recruit he has a grayshirt offer and that there is no risk in him being grayshirted.

                • Alabama has never NOT told a recruit he is going to be grayshirted? Come on dude? Were you there? Nebraska for example used grayshirts in a different way. For example a late recruit may emerge after they have already offered their targets. Alabama is slated at 10 JUST this year. Nebraska in the last 10 years has maybe offered 5. You see the difference here. We can go round and round on this but you know there is some glaring differences here. 10 in one year (Alabama) or 5 in 10 years (Nebraska)! Wow dude.

                  • Bethel,
                    Grayshirting is an acceptable practice if done correctly. If their are 10 grayshirts, IT IS A PRODUCT OF OVERSIGNING.

                    • Why… if 10 kids want to wait until next year to get on the team because you have a small senior class this current year and a 30 player senior class the next year? There isn’t room for them in this class and the only way they can play football at Alabama is to wait unitl next year when there is a 30 player class… IF they are willing to wait, and the school is willing to wait… why is it bad?

                  • I don’t care if it’s 25… if Alabama has enough room to take 25 kids in the next class and they want kids from this class to fill those spots AND those 25 kids want to wait to play at Alabama… Where is this wrong?

                    And yes, I say they tell the kids they are grayshirting because the KIDS say that and the COACH says that. If you want to pass rules to MAKE SURE they know what is being offered…100% behind it.

                    • ok. That is not what the grayshirt is for. That is the abuse of the grayshirt. That is a loophole that has been exposed and exploited by the SEC (mainly). It would be fine but I can guarantee these kids dont just accept to grayshirt year after year. In fact, most kids actually want to come in to a University and compete right away…Not even redshirt. Here we go round and round as well.

                    • It would be fine but I can guarantee these kids dont just accept to grayshirt year after year

                      Yet we have quote after quote from Alabama grayshirt recepients who say that they were always aware that they would likely need to delay enrollment and were fine with it. You guarantee they don’t? Where is your evidence? What do you base this guarantee on? At this point, I highly doubt your reasoning in this matter.

                    • Yeah I have noticed these cases. Most of the time these kids are on the team still. Do you really think they are going to come out publicly and say they were lied to…. You have said 100% know what a grayshirt is, I highly doubt that number. Besides why would they want to take 10 grayshirts? 10 players to count towards next years class. Exactly, because they will have 8-10 kids lost in one year to Alabama “attrition” to plug those grayshirts/oversigned players in. If you dont see this recurrence of events as something wrong then you need to check your ethics.

                    • BRed,

                      Let me ask you this. Since the reasons for attrition seem to be the same for Nebraska as they are at UA, is your only concern with them possibly being malicious because UA oversigned? No proof that any these are and I can understand where it can be questioned. But if all the attrition at UA had taken place when UA did not oversign or only by 1 or 2 for players that will grayshirt are you saying you would have no problem with it?

                    • You have said 100% know what a grayshirt is, I highly doubt that number.

                      I have never said this. I have said that there has not been evidence that it is not the case. There is no reason to assume that any of the players have been lied to except for those who simply choose to do so because of their existing bias against Bama or Saban. If noone has ever come out saying they weren’t told, and many have said that they were, why would you (or how could you) assume that some are not?

                      Besides why would they want to take 10 grayshirts? 10 players to count towards next years class.

                      Simple. I don’t kid myself – there will likely be 2 or 3 transfers this summer, no doubt. I have heard that they may put another guy on a medical, and I’ve also heard that one guy thinks he’ll do better on the baseball team. That is 4 or 5 guys that are sure to be leaving, nothing evil, nobody being forced out. While this year’s graduating class was rather small, next year’s is rather large (at least 25). The talent expected to leave early for the draft is expected to be no less than this year’s as well. Why not grayshirt more than usual (5-6, or even 10 if nobody leaves) to allow for the disparity in numbers? How does this hurt any student?

                      Would you rather tell a guy, “Sorry, we can’t take you at Alabama. I know you would love to play here, and we would like to have you – if we only had one more spot it would be yours. This class is too small, if you were a year younger, why that would be all the difference, ’cause we’ll have a bumper class next year, with plenty of room. Too bad you are just too old.”? Or would you rather say, “I’d love to have you on this team, however we don’t have room in this class. We can grayshirt you and take you with next year’s class where we have plenty of room if you are willing to delay your enrollment until the spring. If someone transfers over the summer, we may be able to bring you on board this fall afterall, but I can’t promise that.”

                      Which would you rather say? Neither are unethical to me, though one does seem to help out the student more than the other.

    • You can not use that as a defense on here for oversigning. Many people have been bashed when they defend sign and place kids and say it is alright to oversign players because they will not qualify. Go back to when this site began and Joshua criticized that practice and pointed out why the SEC implemented the rule because that was Nutt’s defense for signing so many. Even the site says that should not be a reason for oversigning.

      For me I think no kid should be allowed to sign a NLI unless they have already qualified. That would eliminate that process completely of signing kids who might not qualify.

    • I find serveral quotes a bit interesting in that article… from the main persons that had grips (three I believe).

      Mr. Kirschman said the decision to take the medical scholarship was ultimately his, and that he decided to do it to open up a scholarship for the good of the team. But he said he felt he was pressured. “It was pushed,” he said. “It was instigated for several players.”

      So.. in the end it was his decision and he understood what he was doing.

      Mr. Griffin said that he was surprised last month when the football staff told him he had failed a physical. At that point, Mr. Griffin said, Mr. Saban sat him down and asked him what he wanted to do besides playing football. He said that Mr. Saban floated the possibility of a medical scholarship and asked if Mr. Griffin was interested in student coaching.

      Mr. Griffin said he doesn’t contest the results of the physical and said it was “basically my decision” to forgo the rest of his playing career.

      He tore his ACL and failed the physical…. He doesn’t contest that and he says it was his decision to leave… Hmmmmm.

      They never do say who the Third Bitter player was and have no quotes from him, but they do add this nugget at the end…

      In some cases, the players who took these scholarships say they didn’t feel pressured. Charles Hoke, a former Alabama offensive lineman who took a medical scholarship in 2008 because of a shoulder problem, said the choice was left entirely up to him and was based on the many conversations he had with the team’s doctors and trainers over the course of his junior year.

      Here is how I feel… if Alabama is abusing medicals, that is wrong; However, there is no way to determine that. I would love to see a 3rd party doctor evaluate to verify a medical as a condition to receive clearence from the NCAA.

      I can tell you as fact, that while I was an athelete at Alabama and while a Trainer at Auburn… there are several people out there on the practice field that should be on a medical. I would like to see more schools use it and get those kids off the field before they have a serious injury that impacts the rest of their life.

      • Amen. If the system is going to err, I would rather see it err on the side of caution relative to the student’s health. Kid’s don’t need to be pushing themselves through pain to remain on scholarship. And they definitely don’t need to be making these calls themselves. Hank Gathers couldn’t stop, and he knew he could die. And he did.

        • Hank…. wow, I had totally forgotten about him. Man, makes me sad all over again….

          (moment of silence)

          I do think there should be a 3rd party verification process; however, I don’t know that the NCAA wants to be involved in clearing a guy medically to play and open themselves up to any court actions when things go bad…

          • and he failed the physical…..by the team doctor. Ironic isnt it?

            • Yeah… like I said, there are more out there than you know of. I can promise you that cause I’ve seen it first hand.

              • I know there is too. I played college football and I have seen all kinds of stuff. Usually a coach will try to play a kid who is injured, not get rid of him when he is not performing on the field. Its simple. For example, Alabama signs over 10 kids because they want to bring that new crop in and see if they perform better than their current crop of kids. When they do they will make any reason to get rid of those kids who arent performing. If Nebraska was to do this they would have gotten rid of a Cody Spano, a qb who has had 4 knee surgeries in 2 years instead of a starter and a 2 deep linebacker who saw significant playing time, BUT they didnt.

                • The only problem with your statement is that grayshirts can’t be on the team until the next spring. They can’t be there at practice during this time you claim Saban is evaluating if they are good enough to replace this player. You need to re-evaluate your stance on this, I think, since this makes your whole theory invalad.

                  • no he is evaluating the kids he is going to get rid of on the team to plug in these grayshirts.

                    • So how would getting rid of oversigning fix this? If the kid isn’t going to play, he isn’t going to play – so he’ll still get kicked off the team, freeing up more scholarships for next year’s class.

                      BTW, if Saban goes up to a guy and tells him he isn’t looking at much playing time, and if that is what he wants he may want to consider transferring but if he doesn’t mind riding the pine, he is still welcome – I don’t have a problem with it – especially if they help him find a school willing to take him on scholarship. Given the high level of talent making its way to Bama in recent years, it would not be unreasonable to expect most of these players to pursue more playing time.

                    • no he is evaluating the kids he is going to get rid of on the team to plug in these grayshirts

                      But that is not what you said. Here is the quote I was responding to…

                      Alabama signs over 10 kids because they want to bring that new crop in and see if they perform better than their current crop of kids

                      This is incorrect as I mentioned – the new crop cannot be on the field at that time. As for evaluating the kids he is going to get rid of, how is that any different from anywhere else? If a kid transfers from NU or OSU in January, could you not say the same thing – assuming you look at the event with the same critical eye you do those at Alabama?

  8. Saban’s numbers have declined year to year as he remade his roster from Shula’s recruiting efforts. Schools want coaches to win or else immediately (see: Michigan). If a coach leaves a full roster of marginal talent, then a coach better negotiate a 6 or 7 year deal on the front end, and fans had best be comfortable with 7-5 seasons while the prior coach’s poor recruiting filters out of the system. Michigan certainly did not have that patience.

    Florida’s new coach has a bunch of offensive players with skill sets that are optimal for a spread offense, yet he has hired an NFL coordinator with plans to implement an NFL pro-style attack. Will Florida do the ethical thing and grant all those players unrestricted transfer rights? Um, no.

    This entire charade is a bunch of pot-kettle-black name-calling.

    • That is why I said lets see how CNS is doing in another year or two when all the players are his recruits and if he still oversigns by as many as he has to this point. My guess would be not but many on here will assume otherwise. I am not sure what they will do if he only has 1 or 2 over because they will have nothing to complain about since the majority of the posters against oversigning on this site only concern themselves with Saban and UA.

      • “Please, mom, I don’t wanna go to bed! Just five more minutes!”
        *five minutes later*
        “just five more minutes!”
        *five minutes later*
        “just five more minutes!”

        Nick Saban is entering year five, and just signed his fifth recruiting class. New coach roster transitions last one year, two at the most. It’s cynical to ask for “five more minutes” to get the house in order when he’s had five years to do so.

        • The roster transition only lasts one or two years if the coach runs off all the freshmen and sophomores from the prior coach. And that’s now impossible with the 28 rule.

          This site is no longer “for” anything. It’s just against. And such movements inevitably lead to cures far worse than the disease.

          • Whoa there- the percentage of people who transfer or even want to transfer when a new coach comes in is nowhere close to the 100% attrition you’re talking about. Do you think a coach is going to run off a 5 star redshirt freshman the last coach signed just because the last coach signed him? That’s ridiculous.

            A lack of focus? The editorial focus of this site has always been on ending oversigning. If you want to get something done, you can’t advocate many multiple causes, then you’re just like a dog chasing a car who gets distracted by the next car he chases. You think that “such movements [as this site's] inevitably lead to cures far worse than the disease”– you’re just spouting off aphorisms.

            • In the beginning this site specifically stated that even grayshirting was a result of oversigning. Many stated that a coach only has to grayshirt because they oversigned and if they did not oversign no player would have to defer their enrollment. Go read the older posts on here. Now because OSU grayshirted and a few other schools are also it is ok and people now are defending the practice of grayshirting with exceptions to the rule.

              Just like with transfers and medical hardships. In the beginning they were all deemed malicious but now there are exceptions.

              By the way BJ Scott was a 5 star recruit who is transferring from UA. I guess based on what you said Saban still wants him, which will go against most anti-Saban posters who will tell you that his transfer is malicious.

              • Was BJ Scott a Shula recruit? Was he run off because he was a Shula recruit?

                90% of the time, grayshirting is a result of oversigning. Because grayshirts usually come from scholarship number issues and are usually worse for the player than a scholarship, I’m not keen on them and would like to see them gone. I don’t care as strongly about it because greyshirting is largely a byproduct of oversigning, and the problem will mostly be taken care of when oversigning is prohibited nationally.

                • My understanding is that Saban tried to talk BJ Scott out of transfering… BJ didn’t adapt well to a position change. He was a WR I beleive and moved to DB… he never did mange to pick it up and has transfered to get playing time before he runs out of time to show what he has and try to get to the NFL… I wish him well and hope he does well.

                  • From what I’ve heard, BJ Scott expressed his desire to tranfer last summer. Alabama’s coaching staff convinced him to give it another try, but after the season he still wanted to transfer. Wanted more playing time and wanted to be closer to home.

                    “I felt like I had a great opportunity to come down here and contribute and play, and there was no better place to do that than at home,” said Scott, who added not having to sit out a year was a huge factor in his decision.

                    http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2011/01/south_alabama_welcomes_four_tr.html

                • Grayshirting isn’t a Byproduct of oversigning… it IS what oversigning is…

                  If I want to play at Alabama and they don’t have room for me in this current class, should the SEC or NCAA be able to say… “sorry for you, you’ll have to go elsewhere cause EVEN THOUGH the University is willing to take you in the next class and YOU are willing to wait… We feel it isn’t fair to the other schools…”

                  See how silly that sounds? That is what the Big 10 rule does.

                  Implement rules that help regulate the grayshirt offers. The kids don’t ever need to be mislead… but if they have the correct information and understand it AND agree to it, why is it a problem?

                  • NO ITS NOT! Its what the intentions are. Alabama used grayshirts to make up for their oversigning. Other programs use grayshirts for a late emergence of a recruit when they have already offered their other targets!

                    • Oh wow… I can’t believe you just said that… Mind blowing. You need to talk to Josh about that one. It’s only ok when you find a recruit late in the game and you’ve already filled your roster… THEN it’s ok… Wow… just Wow.

                      BTW, you do know that the recurits from Alabama have stated that they know they have a grayshirt offer and the coach has said many times the inform all the kids that have a grayshirt offer BEFORE national Signing day… so every NLI that Alabama has received there are AT LEAST 10 kids that RIGHT THIS VERY MOMENT know they may be grayshirted…

                    • So when UGA originally offered X Ward because they did not think they had room before NSD, according to you their intentions were malicious.

                      Well I agree with you there.

            • Whoa there- the percentage of people who transfer or even want to transfer when a new coach comes in is nowhere close to the 100% attrition you’re talking about. Do you think a coach is going to run off a 5 star redshirt freshman the last coach signed just because the last coach signed him? That’s ridiculous.

              If you’ll remember, UA was coming of scholarship redcutions and probation… I don’t think we had many, if any 5 star recruits… we were doing good to get anyone we could. It was pretty thin pickings for a 3 or 4 year streatch….

              Mike… do you think oversiging is the problem or the purging of rosters against the will of the recurits? Cause they are two different issues that will require different measure to controll…

              My view is grayshirting (oversigning) is just fine IF the kids know what is going on. Right now there are no rules that control that… I would like to see some rules in place that would allow the kids to have the knowledge so they and their parents can make the best choice for them come signing day.

              Purging the roster against a players will… bad. Not sure how you stop it. I don’t see how you can stop transfers, although I would love to see 4 years scholarship offers in lieu of the 1 year renewable ones. Medicals could require 3rd party verification… but I don’t know who wants to take on that liability…

              Your suggestions, thoughts?

              • Scholarship reductions…whats that?
                –signed Nebraska

                • It’s what happens when you get caught cheating like I did
                  -signed Tim Neumann, former Nebraska wrestling coach

                  • Im pretty sure there werent any scholarship reduction NCAA sanctions because what coach Newmann has done.
                    -signed Nebraska

                    • “In 2000-01, the university reduced the team financial aid maximum equivalency by 1.46″

                      http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/NCAANewsArchive/2002/Division+I/infractions%2Bcase_%2Buniversity%2Bof%2Bnebraska,%2Blincoln%2B-%2B2-4-02.html

                      Basically, Nebraska docked themselves 1.5 scholarships in the wake of some pretty egregious violations by the wrestling and swimming programs. The NCAA agreed with Nebraska’s self-imposed penalties (including the reduction in scholarships), and added some additional penalties. So, I think the Nebraska AD is familiar with the concept of scholarship reductions.

                    • Nebraska’s athletic director was in congress at the time of these SELF IMPOSED scholarship reductions so he has nothing to do with it. Nebraska stepped in and did the right thing by firing the wrestling coach and by docking themselves in scholarships. No NCAA sanctions we imposed. It never has happened even though I was referring to football. Im sure Stallings resigned because he was just tired of coaching?….

              • I think oversigning is a product of other issues being addressed. Once they are addressed and sanctions can be placed oversigning will not happen. Right now oversigning happens because loopholes in roster management are in place.

                Even though many on here want oversigning to stop as if it is the main issue but it is not. See oversigning gives a lot SEC, UA, and Saban fans an avenue to voice concern against. But the real issues of why players are transferring or leaving the team that should be the main concern are alright if the team did not oversign.

                It is funny how people will criticize UA or other SEC teams for roster purges but defend it just as strong when their school does because it is alright since they do not oversign.

                The funny thing is there is very little evidence to say anything malicious has happened at UA as there is to prove it did not at schools that do not oversign. Again an outlet for their hate but the fact is based on what the NCAA right now is considering every school no matter the BCS conference is getting ready to see changes in how they manage their roster.

                I actually doubt the NCAA ever creates a rule for oversigning, they are however are looking by next year or the following to eliminate grayshirting and sign and place all together. They are considering early signing for CFB, which will allow coaches to not have to wait on 20+ players to sign. They will have most of their roster in place before NSD which means roster purges will take place prior to that.

                See my issue with this board is most people want to address the symptom not the cause. Because when the cause is addressed every school will have to adjust. The symptom will only be relegated to those oversigning in this case. A band-aid may stop the bleeding but it will address how the bleeding started.

            • Transfers: Kids have zero rights on that front, so I’m not sure that we really know anything when it comes to what percentage of kids want to transfer when a new coach walks in the door. But the fact remains it will take 5 years for a coach to be able to say that every kid on that roster was a kid he felt would fit his coaching and program philosophy. Did Michigan give Rich 5 years? No.

              How many programs have 5-star redshirt freshmen? Maybe 20. I have no clue what your point might be on that one, but you’re confirming my suspicion that you know the lingo but not the context when it comes to CFB.

              I didn’t say the site lacked focus. I said its focus has become so incessantly negative that it fails to consider the negative consequences of some of the proposed solutions. As much as you want it to be, this is not about Utterly Infallible White Knights of Reason against Evil Football Exploiters Against Education, Mom, and Apple Pie.

              Saban clearly has some program standards that exceed Richt’s. Maybe there’s a reason a Georgia player ends up in the police blotter every other week and an Alabama player doesn’t. Higher standards. From the outside looking in, it’s easy to assume he’s just running off kids based on talent, but I watched some of the ESPN special. I saw plenty of players with less talent than some of the kids who have transferred, such as BJ Scott, who most still consider an NFL prospect.

              Essentially, I think most solutions proposed here in effect become a “one-size-fits-all” code of discipline and conduct for CFB, and that bothers me. Frankly, I would rather have more programs that look like Saban’s than ones that look like Meyer’s and Richt’s. Call me old school, but I liked Dean Smith’s approach: Team first, discipline at all times, always be thinking about becoming a better person. And if you don’t like it, we’ll be happy to help you find a home somewhere else.

        • Again we will see after this year. But my point is which should be value to those who like to attack Saban is that after this current incoming class that next year every player on the roster is a Saban recruit. Alot of UA people have argued that the players removed were not his recruits, which is true for the most part. That these were undisciplined players that would never succeed in playing under the rules and system on CNS. That was their arguement for defending oversigning. If that is true and he forced players to transfer and onto medical hardships because he did not recruit these players and only wanted players he did what will be the excuse next year if UA oversigns.

          I was only pointing out where alot of UA people try to defend. I mean I understand the issues with putting all the pieces together one needs to be successful. But if it continues do UA fans start questioning the practices finally. Alot of UA fans blame Shula’s recruiting for the high roster turn over. Joshua and others that like to attack Saban like to imply he can not evaluate talent and why he needs to have such a large pool to choose from. Again why I think next year will be key to alot of arguements.

          From what I have been able to find out UA will have around 20 seniors on scholarships that will graduate. There is also 4 or 5 juniors likely to leave for the NFL. What will people do if CNS only signs 25 or 1 or 2 over? We they stop posting or still come up with another angle to attack. Again my money would that UA does not and will not need to now that he has got the pieces in place he wants. My money will also be on most of these same people will still attack just on another issue becuase their concern is more about their dislike for Saban than it is any issue.

          • 30 seniors next year… only 25 are on scholaship (or fewer), 3 left for the NFL this year…. so next year (assuming he’s at a 25 max for the class)… there would be 22 spots open, minus any grayshirts from this year.

            That doesn’t mean he won’t and shouldn’t sign more and offer grayshirts…. That is if the kids know and are willing to accept a grayshirt offer…

  9. Saying that this gives the SEC a competitive advantage over the Big 10 is specious. The reason is that beyond the Outback, Capital One and now Gator bowls, SEC and Big 10 schools rarely play each other. While losing those bowl games must stink – and Big 10 schools don’t ALWAYS lose them, remember Penn State beat LSU last year – the fact is that you are in those bowl games to begin with because you missed your primary goal of winning a national title, your secondary goal of winning the Big 10, and your third goal of an at-large berth to a BCS game.

    In that context, the Big 10 isn’t just falling short to the “oversigning” SEC. Instead, they are falling short to pretty much everyone. Big 10 teams haven’t just been losing big games to SEC schools, by the way. Look at how USC hammered Michigan, Illinois, Penn State and Ohio State in Rose Bowls and regular season matchups. Oversigning is not why Michigan hasn’t won a BCS bowl game since 1999 (and that was against Alabama), and it isn’t why the Big 10 has won 2 national titles since 1968 (Michigan in 1997, Ohio State in 2002). It is easy to pick on the SEC because they’re winning titles right now, but the truth is that you can go back to the 1990s and the top teams were FSU and Nebraska; you can go back to the 1980s and the top teams were Miami and Oklahoma. (Actually, the Big 8/Big 12 schools have been pretty consistent, contending in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, and this decade. Hmmm … do they oversign?) Oversigning – and the SEC in general – is merely what you guys are using as scapegoats for your own longtime inability to win at a high level. But the truth is that if it wasn’t the SEC winning those titles, it would be somebody else, likely FSU, Miami, the Big 12, or the Pac-10. Because when it comes down to it, the only Big 10 team to make a true title game (that Michigan-Washington State farce in 1997 doesn’t count) in decades is Ohio State, who lost to Florida (who doesn’t oversign) and LSU (whose oversigning is overstated).

    And yes, I wonder if the oversigning issue is in fact overstated with regards to the SEC, and particularly with the Big 10′s ability to compete. You listed Ole Miss, Alabama, LSU, and Auburn. Well, Ole Miss has had 3 good seasons in 30 years. One of them was when Eli Manning was a senior, the other two were in 2008 and 2009 when Houston Nutt was playing his predecessor’s recruits. Alabama? Legitimate oversigning offender, but they’ve won 1 SEC title this century, plus Alabama’s success has not come against the Big 10. Auburn? What seems to be oversigning with the Tigers is actually Auburn’s relying on JUCOs more heavily than any other SEC school. So that leaves LSU. Yes, they beat Ohio State in 2007 for the national title, but that was Les Miles’ third year in Baton Rouge, and few of Miles’ recruits even played in that title game. Ohio State didn’t lose that game because of oversigning by LSU, but because Ohio State for some reason keeps recruiting guys like Todd Boeckman (and Justin Zwick and Austin Moherman and a bunch of other similar guys who can’t make plays passing or running) to play QB. And when you do get a weapon like Terrelle Pryor, you won’t use him the way that SEC schools do (i.e. the way that Florida used Tim Tebow, Auburn used Cam Newton, or even the way that LSU used Matt Mauck and Matt Flynn, and Florida used Chris Leak). That is coaching and recruiting, not oversigning. It isn’t as if you guys didn’t have a model for it: Northwestern and Minnesota had been running similar offenses for years. They just didn’t have the talent to win big with it. But the schools in the Big 10 that get the better players don’t properly utilize it. You would have never known that Ohio State while they were losing all those BCS games had like 5 future NFL wide receivers on their roster, BECAUSE THEY REFUSED TO THROW THEM THE BALL!

    Yes, the SEC and the NCAA need to step in and stop what Alabama is doing. The Ole Miss problem will take care of itself when Houston Nutt gets fired in a couple of years. (I am still not convinced that LSU and Auburn are actual offenders, especially when Les Miles openly admitted that he just got sloppy and made mistakes at times.) But either way, quit using the SEC as a scapegoat for the Big 10′s inability to compete, because the Big 10′s gridiron disappointments come against everyone, not just the SEC, and ESPECIALLY when Ohio State is removed from the discussion.

    • Gerald, even most SEC fans admit that it is a big advantage. This point is not really in dispute. When you have more numbers to work with, logically you can reduce your risk on busts and build quality depth. The conference is down right now for many reason and Big Ten fans don’t dispute that. Your point about Boeckman, if OSU oversigned, perhaps players like Boeckman would have been pushed off the team. BTW, do you really believe Les’ “sloppy” response?

      I think that there are more flaws in your post. First, you are not including the Penn State’s national championships. Further, too much weight is put on a very small sample of games from a short time span. The Big Ten has competed just fine over the decades. It appears that you only seem to care about Mythical National Championship and tend to dismiss the value of consistency. You seem to look at results and not consider context. The only conference who has any short term bragging rights is the SEC and that is based on a handful of games over the past 5 years.

      BTW, Don’t forget the struggles that OU and Nebraska had in the 80s and early 90s in big games, and that many of those programs were stocked with JUCOs. Also don’t forget that a lot of those programs that you mentioned served some serious probation time. You made some good points though.

      • Penn State’s NCs came before they were members of the Big 10.

        Gerald’s post is spot on. This site wouldn’t exist were it not for the fact that its owner seems to have a serious issue with one school and its conference. And it further seems that this individual has some deep resentments he needs to deal with. Many of you continue to try and play that down, as if it isn’t of any consequence, but clearly it is.

      • I am not including Penn State’s national championships because Penn State wasn’t in the Big 10 when they won them. If most SEC fans admit that it is a disadvantage, then most SEC fans are wrong. Look, YOUR OWN ANALYSIS stated that the ONLY offenders were Alabama, Ole Miss, Auburn and LSU. Other than the 1992 and 2009 national titles, Alabama has had little meaningful success since the Bear Bryant era. Auburn doesn’t oversign: they just sign a lot of JUCOs. Ole Miss stinks. That leaves LSU.

        Bottom line: it is you guys who claim that oversigning gives the SEC a competitive advantage over the Big 10. My response was simply that this can’t be true, because the Big 10 struggles against EVERYBODY, not just the SEC. You can’t broaden and narrow the argument as it suits your agenda.

        OU and Nebraska’s “struggles” in the 80s and 90s were overstated. It was just the media bashing them in order to get them to abandon their option-oriented offense. The truth is that OU, Nebraska and similar did better in the 80s and 90s than they have the last 10 years, when they have lost 4 straight BCS title games and done very poorly in other BCS bowls.

        Yes, I believe Les Miles’ “sloppy recruiting” response. LSU had to sanction themselves and fire a couple of coaches because of their bungling recruiting. The reason for this is that LSU doesn’t need to oversign in order to compete with the Big 10 or anybody else. Florida and LSU have consistently been the most talented schools in the SEC the past 10 years. LSU has a whole state to themselves, and can get what they want/need out of Mississippi, Texas and other states.

        Bottom line: the only real offender is Alabama. And yes, my position is that the NCAA should step in and address this issue.

    • Why must Saban be “stopped?” Name one specific case that you feel violates an ethical standard, then state the standard. One kid, one standard. Should be simple.

      • Let’s see: Jay Paterno at PSU — doesn’t understand the rules, He is soooo stupid. AD at Georgia — doesn’t understand the rules. He is sooo naive. President of Florida — doesn’t understand the rules. He is sooo hypocritical. Urbie Meye — doesn’t understand the rules. He is sooo suffering from dementia. Big Ten — doesn’t understand the rules. They are just whiners.

        Apparently the only ones who truly understand the rules are the schools of the SEC West and their defenders on this board.

        • One kid, one standard. Should be a total softball, right?

        • Please link where Meyer said he was against oversigning or had an issue with schools that did. Maybe I missed the link because I saw an article on here where he was upset about certian recruiting practices and those were directed at Aubunr and former UT coaches.

          • oversigning in a way is like the largest school in the state playing the smallest, the largest school has an advantage because of the larger talent pool. Plain and simple.

            • I’d suggest you petition the Big 10 to let you oversign then.

              • Youre going the wrong way here bud. Oversigning will soon be banned, not allowed nation wide.

                • Actually grayshirting will first. I f you have been following the NCAA or go to their website they are currently looking to address grayshirting. From what I read the MCAA and the MLI want grayshirting completely stopped.

                  • It would be interesting how the posters on this site would react to that. The staunchest anti-oversigning posters appear to be Ohio State, Nebraska, and Georgia fans. All 3 of those programs plan on grayshirting signees from their most recent recruiting classes.

                    • I am a staunch anti-oversigning poser. Banning grayshirting would be a great first step. I hope there will be more steps to make it increasingly more difficult for some schools to be “aggressive oversigners.”

                    • yes but banning grayshirting (which I recommend) will stop Alabama and Nick “the shady terror” Saban from oversigning 10 guys. Ban the grayshirt and Saban can only have a total of 85 signed on signing day, not 95-100 like he does now.

                    • Poor phasing on my part. It should have been obvious to me that the posters on this site would be in favor of banning grayshirts solely because they would view it as a victory over Saban.

                      I should have asked how the head coaches at Ohio State, Nebraska, and Georgia would feel about a ban on grayshirts. Apparently, they all see the value in the practice since they all utilize it. I would imagine that they would also be more concerned with how such a ban might negatively affect players than how it would affect Saban’s ability to manage his roster.

                    • Yeah but when they oversign by 10 they are essentially offering 10 grayshirts until Saban runs them off because they are not performing they way he thought they would.

                    • But if your assumptions are correct, banning grayshirts will not stop this. Players would still get run off to make more room for new players. He just has to do it this year for next year’s class in stead of this year for this year’s class.

                  • Ok. Go ahead and ban grayshirting. Banning grayshirting wont hurt Nebraska’s one grayshirt as much as Alabama’s 10 each year. Banning grayshirts will be a good first step to banning oversigning.

                    • UA had 2 last year not 10 and if the info out there is correct will have none this year unless the 3 who had season ending injuries in the fall HS season are not fully recovered.

        • It is not “the SEC West.” It really is just Alabama. Auburn doesn’t oversign … they just appear to because they sign so many JUCOs. Arkansas doesn’t do it, neither does Mississippi State. Ole Miss had no history of it before Houston Nutt. And I am not convinced that LSU actually belongs on this list.


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