Oversigning.com
7Mar/11139

Florida State Has No Plan

Or at least that is what it sounds like here:

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_college_fsu/2011/02/florida-state-doesn’t-plan-to-greyshirt-any-incoming-recruits.html

No one said the fight would be easy. We'll have more on this later when our head is finished exploding and we figure out how to blame this on Nick Saban. One thing is for sure, they named that damn blog right "The Chopping Block."

Comments (139) Trackbacks (0)
  1. Yup, it’s all SEC, all Alabama, all Saban all the time here. The people here are just jealous of the SEC. That’s why we care about Florida State, because they’re in the SEC.

    • You’re right. One blog entry about FSU compared to dozens about Alabama. No bias there. I just hope Josh didn’t develop carpal tunnel writing this scathing indictment on FSU.

      • I would venture to say that the level of coverage on this site is in proportion with the level of abuse, but you see what you want to see.

        • Proportional to the level of abuse? Really? You’ve got one former Alabama player who claims that the medical option felt pushed, but it was ultimiately his decision AND he’s getting 5 years of college tuition. Meanwhile, Purdue pulls a kid’s offer weeks before NSD because of an injury, and that doesn’t even warrant its own blog entry. Instead it’s lumped in with Spurrier, and not surprisingly, all the attention and comments are focused on Spurrier and no one talks about the abuse suffered by King at the hands of a Big Ten school.

          And if the “abuse” you refer to is not so much individual cases involving players but the act of oversigning itself, then where are the blog entries about Troy, Temple, Kansas State and Southern Miss? Not high profile enough programs for you? Then where is the blog entry on Michigan State, Ohio State, Penn State, and Michigan? Is it a coincidence that the most successful Big Ten programs traditionally, are also the ones who are guilty of exploiting the Big Ten’s own oversigning loophole this year? Somehow, I doubt that question will ever be addressed on this site.

          • Would love for you to prove that Michigan, State, or PSU has ever exploited the BIG 10 rules on signing. You are such a homer, you need a dose of reality. The attention on this site is right where it is warranted.

            • yep, of course it is. The blog is about FSU, but Josh even says he has to figure out a way to blame Saban for it.

            • http://oversigning.com/testing/index.php/the-oversigning-cup/

              Michigan State +4, Ohio State +2, Penn State +1, Michigan +1

              How are the ethical teams like Northwestern and Minnesota supposed to compete when there are teams like the ones above who are willing to use the unethical practice of oversigning to gain a competitive advantage?

              • FYI the first one I reviewed was Michigans 85, which included 5 walk-on scholarships (handed out after unused schollies are determined) were included and a 5th year that will not be renewed in M. Williams.

                Link needs to be updated.

                • If you’re claiming that the numbers posted on this website are incorrect, then we’re in agreement.

                  So Michigan chose not to renew the scholarship of one of it’s players? Was the scholarship not renewed before or after NSD?

                  • Typically, though you probably know this and are just taking an unnecessary tact, scholarships are July to July. Can’t pull a grant for a year half way through. The real question is if the kid was told he would be getting an additional year, and when was he told.

                    • What about Forcier? He seemed to kind of write his own exit ticket, though I didn’t follow the stories that closely. Didn’t he just transfer?

                  • Michigans # includes 5 walk-ons. I am sure that all walkons know that their scholarship was never promised for 4 years, when they committed to play without a scholarship in the first place.

                    You think you are getting a little off track?

                    • Was M. Williams a walk-on?

                    • M. Williams was not a walk on, but they would have no reason at all to force him out. Not with 5 scholarships given to walk on players in the prior year that are not expected to be renewed, only given if all scholarships are not filled. He also missed time in each of his seasons due to multiple concussions.

              • There is much debate on the PSU boards about one OT and whether he is, or has ever been, on a grant. He is included in the list cited here that has PSU +1.

  2. Oh, also: you read EDSBS, don’t you?

  3. Nice reference to EDSBS. Congrats on the mention there.

    Yes, FSU is oversigned and yes they are counting on attrition to get everyone on board – but with a first year coach it is common and expected that there will be a lot of kids leaving, even though he has been there a while as an assistant. Don’t know what FSU’s budget is (odd thing to not publish something they don’t actually know) but I imagine that they will have room with natural attrition here. I would expect them to have enough kids willing and knowing that a grayshirt will be needed if the transfers etc don’t materialize.

  4. I love this part:

    “And it’s true that oversigning has a negative connotation. When a team oversigns, it means that it needs to shed players to stay within the 85 scholarship limit. In Florida State’s case, though, criticism for oversigning would probably be unwarranted. The Seminoles need some roster attrition, but some of that was expected anyway.”

    Rationalize much?

    I realize there’s a difference between a transfer and forcing someone off the team but signing more players than you have room is by its very definition oversigning and opens up the possibility of needing to force someone from the team.

    • Yep. And that’s why it is inherently unethical.

    • My first reaction as well.

    • and opens up the possibility of needing to force someone from the team.

      Not if you have some players willing to grayshirt. Then it is neither wrong or unethical.

      • Sure it is. Because you are allowing powerful employees room to exploit ignorance in the marketplace. Same thing as predatory lending.

        If the practice was ethical, all universities would do it. You know this but continue to lie about the situation.

        • You are the one assuming the ignorance. It has been proven time and again that Saban’s recruits are aware of what their scholarship agreement is for. Every year, all players that grayshirt for Saban say that they were aware of it all along and were fine with it. This doesn’t stop you from assuming that he is lying anyway. You are the one making things up about lies and what is ethical. You have never shown any evidence to support your claims, yet you continue to slander everyone who dares to disagree with you. That is immoral. That is wrong and you should reconsider your own ethics before continuing to spread mischaracterizations.

          Does this mean that the spread offense is immoral? Not every team does it, then by your reasoning, it must be wrong. What about trick plays? Is Boise State’s win over Oklahoma tainted because they used tactics that most teams don’t?

          • “Proven time and time again…”

            There you go lying again.

            If the grayshirts were known, they would be announced at NSD. They are instead announced just before the deadline in the late summer.

            • But you are wrong. If the deadline is in late summer, why should he have to announce the grayshirts before then? Just like the list of scholarship players he doesn’t have to provide it to the public – he doesn’t have to say who’s grayshirting until spring enrollment.

              No, no lies. Both grayshirts from last year said they were aware of the grayshirt from when they signed. The recruit this year who opted to sign with Kentucky obviously knew his was a grayshirt offer. Saban himself has been quoted as saying noone has ever been grayshirted without knowing when he signed.

      • You mean not if you have uninformed recruits willing to do something the NLI administrator doesn’t support. We lose sight of that…the NLI folks do not recommend accepting a grayshirt because if offers no protection for the recruit.

        • They’ve also said that grayshirting nullifies the NLI. That’s why Saban waits as long as he can to announce grayshirts. Lets him lock players in till the last second.

          • Except that Saban has said, and his recruits have verified that every player that grayshirts knows before they sign. Don’t let actual facts or quotes get in the way of your preconceived perceptions though.

            • One recruit has said that.

              And numerous other ex-players have said Saban lies all the time about various things.

              • what constitutes “Numerous”… or do you mean the ONE player that was written about in the WSJ that had grips, but also said in the end it was his decision?

        • Josh, what are the specifics of that rule? Surely if a grayshirt if offered, it nullifies the NLI only if the player wants it, right? That would be a horrible rule if the schools could offer a kid, then offer a grayshirt only to not honor it since they are no longer bound to it. That would be wrong and if the NCAA has written a rule that allows this it should correct it. I don’t understand this administrator being so against grayshirts – as long as the recruit is aware of it all along. Grayshirts aren’t the problem as I think even you would agree to at least some extent.

  5. I like this part of the article:

    “But whatever the number is – I’ll have it from Florida State on Monday”

    …and then he never produced it.

  6. On Feb. 18th, 2 weeks after that blog entry:

    @Oversigning: @os_andrewcarter: Did FSU ever give you the total scholarships # from the 2010 football season?

    @os_andrewcarter: @Oversigning: They’re Alabama-ing me. Still working on it.

    http://twitter.com/#!/os_andrewcarter/status/38657872510324736

  7. At least Josh is honest in waiting to find a way to blame Saban for this.

    • besides the fact that Saban lets all his recruits know where they stand, if they will be using a grayshirt or not. He doesnt sign them and then ambush with it, they know well ahead of time, so that if they dont want to, they can sign with a different school.

      • You have absolutely no idea whether he does that or not. One recruit has said he’s upfront, other ex-Alabama players have said he lies.

        And as Joshua has pointed out, if he was really that upfront with them, he would announce the grayshirts on NSD, not right before the scholarship deadline.

        • hmm, it has been in interviews that said whenever a player was going to grayshirt, they knew about it ahead of time. Find me one interview that says different?

          And Saban does tell the recruits who would be grayshirting before NSD. but then because of who does and doesnt sign, some recruits dont grayshirt after all.

          you cant. All you do is come on and attack other people.

          • Xzavier Dickson clearly didn’t get the memo about the scholarships being a 1-year deal.

            Numerous ex-Alabama players have said Saban lies. You have absolutely no idea what he tells each recruit nor do you have any idea how well they understand the risks.

            It’s just the predatory lending argument. It brings you gains, so you support unethical behavior.

            Says a lot about your character (or lack thereof).

            • Saban waits until the last minute because he wants to go through spring ball before he makes his decision and lets each recruit know if they will grayshirt or not. He tells so many who will grayshirt, he can pick and choose come August 1st. Yeah he really tells every recruit what is going on.

              • and yet, he doesnt wait until the last minute. Jones knew, his current grayshirts knew. He didnt spring it on them, he let them know during their recruitment. He had a WR turn down the chance that he might be a grayshirt and he chose another school. Saban didnt wait and spring it on him, he let him know well in advance so that if he didnt want to do it, he could find another school (which he did).

                You like to criticize me on here Red. Find 1 article that says Saban sprung a grayshirt on someone at the last minute. Just 1, and i will agree with you.

                • He tells them there’s a small possibility and then, if they can’t chase enough players off, the player is told about the grayshirt shortly before the deadline.

                  So the players were simply told there was a small chance, not that they would definitely be grayshirting. That’s why the grayshirts are announced in July, not August.

                  You know all this of course. But you pretend that it isn’t true or that it is ethical. I’ll let In the Middle decide what that makes you.

                  • And you know any of this how? Saban says he has never grayshirted a player that didn’t know that was his offer when he signed. There has never been a Saban Grayshirt that complained or otherwise said anything like what you accuse is going on, so where do you get it? I can only come to the conclusion that you are making it up, which fits in line with your history of falsly accusing people of whatever you want to make your view of circumstances work.

                    • everytime a recruit comes out and says he was informed, they always say Saban told them there is a small chance they may grayshirt. It is never a definite “you are being offered a grayshirt.” Big difference there.

                    • I’ve never seen that wording. Do you have a link? Not denying, and I don’t know that what you describe is all that bad. Depends on how it is described. “Hey Johnny, we’d love to have you but right now you would have to grayshirt to come here. We do have a kid contemplating a transfer. If he decides to do so, we would move you into this class.” Just what you describe, but no misrepresentation on Saban’s ppart.

                  • I posted this in another thread, but…

                    http://www.tampabay.com/hometeam/blog/3834-ex-hawk-petey-smith-likely-to-grayshirt-for-alabama-in-09/948/

                    Ex-Hawk Petey Smith likely to ‘grayshirt’ for Alabama in ‘09

                    Thu. August 6, 2009 | Times Staff

                    Don’t be shocked if former Armwood all-state linebacker Petey Smith doesn’t suit up for the University of Alabama this fall.

                    Fact is, Hawks coach Sean Callahan said, that has been the plan all along.

                    Smith was among four members of the Crimson Tide’s incoming freshman class not on the team’s initial 105-man roster when Alabama reported for fall camp Wednesday. Smith is expected to “grayshirt,” meaning he wouldn’t enroll until January so his signing doesn’t count against the current signing class.

                    “We have three potential guys…that will be pushed back to January in terms of them starting their college career,” Tide coach Nick Saban said at his pre-camp news conference.

                    Callahan, reached Thursday, said Smith’s grayshirt is not academic-related.

                    “That was always (the plan) because of (Alabama’s) needs,” Callahan said. “Petey always knew he was going in January from Day One and he was fine with that, but he was up there the whole summer working out.”

                    Alabama returned all four of its starting linebackers from 2008, though starter Brandon Fanney wasn’t invited back to the team for a violation of team rules. Five linebackers signed in February, but Smith is the only one of the five expected to grayshirt.

                    JOEY KNIGHT

                    • hmm, i hear crickets from all the people that said Saban ambushes players with grayshirts and doesnt let them know ahead of time.

                    • Its simple, he tells a group of recruits they might be likely to grayshirt depending on if we already have or are able to get Stud A, Stud B, Stud C, Stud D, Stud E, Stud F, Stud G or Stud H. We will have to offer grayshirts to other recruits but what we are not telling you recruit is, if they decline a grayshirt, we will just give him an offer. We like to test the waters with everyone with this grayshirt talk and if the recruit doesnt like the idea we just offer him a scholarship. Saban: “lets just throw the idea of grayshirt out to everyone, that way they will not be able to say we didnt mention the possibility after we severely oversign our roster by 10+ recruits.”

                    • BetterRED you have offered unfounded allegations. Please show me the evidence to support what you are claiming. Thank you.

                    • Brian,
                      Come on? Saban is one of the worst oversigners out there, he has one of the highest medical hardship count in a 4 year tenure but yet you say he is totally truthful with these recruits? Wow what a homer. I have said earlier, these recruits who are on the team are never going to ‘out’ their current team/coach for these things. There are thousands and thousands of people criticizing Saban, but yet you say he always tells the truth. hahaha thats just funny.

                    • RED,

                      Recruit after recruit has talked about how upfront Saban is and how he doesn’t just tell them what they want to hear the way that many coaches do. Here is one example from Cyrus Kouandjio:

                      “He doesn’t sugar anything up—he’ll straight up tell you what’s going on. He wouldn’t tell you you’ll start next year or you’ll be an All-American. He would only say that you’ll have an opportunity to play. Most coaches try to sugarcoat things to make them sound sweet, but Coach Saban and Coach Sal (Sunseri) speak the truth.”

                      http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/feed/2011-01/2011-recruiting/story/cyrus-kouandjio-im-going-for-a-starting-position#ixzz1GAmxOY3b

                      Another piece of evidence that contradicts your allegations are these comments from Alabama commit Chris Jones at the Alabama-Defense All-American Game:

                      “Coach [Nick] Saban told me it’s a one-year scholarship you have to work for,” Jones said. “Some coaches don’t tell some kids. Some kids have to find out the hard way.”

                      He was the only one out of the seven players asked who knew that scholarships are only guarenteed for one year. Nebrask commit, David Santos, was one of the six players who had been kept in the dark. I guess Pelini was afraid that he might scare recruits away if he was completely upfront with them.

                      http://www.thesunnews.com/2010/12/31/1895031/recruits-run-risk-of-losing-their.html

                      Speaking of Pelini, we know for a fact that he lied to a U.S. Servicem Member. So, if he’ll lie to a Service Member to make himself look good, what makes you so sure he isn’t lying to recruits too?

                      http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefootball/story/bo-pelini-nebraska-cornhuskers-holiday-bowl-broken-promise-to-naval-officer-010511?GT1=39002

                    • RED,

                      Recruit after recruit has talked about how upfront Saban is and how he doesn’t just tell them what they want to hear the way that many coaches do. Here is one example from Cyrus Kouandjio:

                      “He doesn’t sugar anything up—he’ll straight up tell you what’s going on. He wouldn’t tell you you’ll start next year or you’ll be an All-American. He would only say that you’ll have an opportunity to play. Most coaches try to sugarcoat things to make them sound sweet, but Coach Saban and Coach Sal (Sunseri) speak the truth.”^

                      Another piece of evidence that contradicts your allegations are these comments from Alabama commit Chris Jones at the Alabama-Defense All-American Game:

                      “Coach [Nick] Saban told me it’s a one-year scholarship you have to work for,” Jones said. “Some coaches don’t tell some kids. Some kids have to find out the hard way.”^^

                      He was the only one out of the seven players asked who knew that scholarships are only guarenteed for one year. Nebraska commit, David Santos, was one of the six players who had been kept in the dark. I guess Pelini was afraid that he might scare recruits away if he was completely upfront with them.

                      Speaking of Pelini, we know for a fact that he lied to a U.S. Servicem Member.^^^ So, if he’ll lie to a Service Member to make himself look good, what makes you so sure he isn’t lying to recruits too?

                      * I apologize if some variation of this post shows up 3 times. I tried posting it with links twice last night, but they’ve yet to be displayed.

                      Here are the 3 corresponding links minus the “http://”

                      ^aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/feed/2011-01/2011-recruiting/story/cyrus-kouandjio-im-going-for-a-starting-position#ixzz1GAmxOY3b

                      ^^www.thesunnews.com/2010/12/31/1895031/recruits-run-risk-of-losing-their.html

                      ^^^msn.foxsports.com/collegefootball/story/bo-pelini-nebraska-cornhuskers-holiday-bowl-broken-promise-to-naval-officer-010511?GT1=39002

            • Texas-Dog please provide the “numerous” ex-Alabama players names that have said Saban lies. In a previous reponse you stated “They’ve also said that grayshirting nullifies the NLI. That’s why Saban waits as long as he can to announce grayshirts. Lets him lock players in till the last second.” Please provide the evidence that supports your statement.

              • he just likes to fling mud and attack other posters. he wont bring you anything

              • Read the Karp/Everson WSJ reports on Alabama. Numerous players that said he lies.

                About grayshirting, the administrators of the NLI program said NLIs are voided when a grayshirt offer is officially made. Pretty obvious why Alabama doesn’t announce their grayshirts on NSD. They exploit player ignorance and misguided expectations.

                • You guys just dont get it. These recruits are not going to come out and criticize their current coach about a grayshirt. That is one way to never see the field or be forced to transfer.

                  • find me a former player that said he was forced into a greyshirt. that he was never informed that he would take a greyshirt.

                • I’ve read it…. ONe player felt pressured to leave on medical, but it was HIS decision in the end. He never said Saban lied to him.

                  To be clear, I would rather err on the side of the doctors than what a kids SAYS he can do…

            • i said find me 1 interview that says they didnt know ahead of time they could be grayshirting. Still waiting…..

              Still waiting for you to find 1 player from Bama that said Saban lied to them about recruiting too……

              • The WSJ produced numerous players who said Saban lies. I’m surprised you still haven’t read those articles. Odd.

                • Articles?

                  I did a LexisNexis search and found one – the medical hardships article. And in that article, one player suggests he felt he could still contribute. Nowhere does he accuse anyone of telling a lie.

                  Do you have any idea how much time I have wasted trying to run down your allegations? It’s the main reason I always make a point to reply to stuff like this.

                  • In addition to Kirschman, Darren Everson told Paul Finebaum they found numerous other med DQs saying they were fine but who wouldn’t go on the record given the obvious hostility they would face.

                    Karp and Everson did 2 stories on Alabama in the fall.

                    Here’s the one you missed:

                    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704243904575630593438793612.html

                    • provide the quote proving Saban lied. It’s not too hard to cut and paste. Others do it all the time on this site.

                    • Not one player ever used the word “lie” or “lies” but you continue to use it. I copy/pasted one article about the use of grayshirts at Alabama, but I realize this doesn’t fit this sites agenda about Saban:

                      http://www.tampabay.com/hometeam/blog/3834-ex-hawk-petey-smith-likely-to-grayshirt-for-alabama-in-09/948/

                      Ex-Hawk Petey Smith likely to ‘grayshirt’ for Alabama in ’09

                      Thu. August 6, 2009 | Times Staff

                      Don’t be shocked if former Armwood all-state linebacker Petey Smith doesn’t suit up for the University of Alabama this fall.

                      Fact is, Hawks coach Sean Callahan said, that has been the plan all along.

                      Smith was among four members of the Crimson Tide’s incoming freshman class not on the team’s initial 105-man roster when Alabama reported for fall camp Wednesday. Smith is expected to “grayshirt,” meaning he wouldn’t enroll until January so his signing doesn’t count against the current signing class.

                      “We have three potential guys…that will be pushed back to January in terms of them starting their college career,” Tide coach Nick Saban said at his pre-camp news conference.

                      Callahan, reached Thursday, said Smith’s grayshirt is not academic-related.

                      “That was always (the plan) because of (Alabama’s) needs,” Callahan said. “Petey always knew he was going in January from Day One and he was fine with that, but he was up there the whole summer working out.”

                      Alabama returned all four of its starting linebackers from 2008, though starter Brandon Fanney wasn’t invited back to the team for a violation of team rules. Five linebackers signed in February, but Smith is the only one of the five expected to grayshirt.

                      JOEY KNIGHT

                    • Fair enough. Wonder why the abstract did not post in LN?

                    • Hmm… what am I missing here… the article you linked says nothing about Saban lieing to recruits or current players about anything. It only says Saban says three kids were removed for violationg team rules. All three say it was their decision to leave, and they didn’t violate any team rules.

                      I don’t see where that helps you arguement… if anything it makes a good arguement that Saban doesn’t run the kids off at all… all three said they left because they were concerned with playing time and it was their decision.

                      Are you now suggesting Saban is telling lies to cover up that he is NOT forcing kids out?

                • WSJ never did an article that said Saban lied about recruiting and greyshirts. i notice you wont produce a link because there isnt one.

  8. “Florida State Has No Plan”

    Nice title. It’s probably not true and definitely not supported by the linked article, but still a very catchy title.

  9. As usual a lot of lies being spread to support an individuals agenda. Very sad!

  10. Ohio State probably oversigned by about 30 players and then lied to the NCAA and said that they didn’t. What a moral man that vest wearing loser is.

    • So you condemn unethical behavior at Ohio State but not at Alabama?

      Bizarre.

      • I condemn lies. And the lying liars that tell them. Ohio State will not have to worry about oversigning for a very long time because they are about to lose their right to give scholarships.

        • …you think Ohio State is going to get the death penalty for this. Wow.

          • They have 375 violations in the last ten years. They have players getting cars. With Tressel’s suspension, the school just basically admitted their coach and AD lied to the NCAA.

            I don’t think the NCAA will ever drop the death penalty again, but OSU is going to get hit and get hit hard. Probably at least as bad as USC.

            • No way! Not even close to USC. Auburn will get hit as hard as USC. NCAA will uncover other players at Auburn taking money.

              • Actually, at this point, I’m thinking that Oregon, OSU and UNC all get popped by varying degress, while Auburn skates.

                No one said life was fair.

              • To say that the NCAA will uncover other players at Auburn taking money is to imply that they found a first player at Auburn taking money, which simply is not the case. I know it is fun to just toss around allegations, but no one has ever shown anything that even remotely resembles proof that Auburn paid anyone.

                Oh, and you know that radio guy that had tapes of Cecil Newton demanding money and threatened to play them on his show for over a month while never actually playing them? Yeah, he was fired today. Apparently he was full of crap.

                So enjoy your baseless allegations. I realise that the “We are morally superior to them” thing is how you cope with your inferiority, but really, now that you have been proven cheaters while Auburn has not been proven to have done anything wrong, we are morally superior to you.

                And we win on the field. Next year will be 6 in a row. Why don’t you grind that up, make a bong out of your recently purchased little 10 championship ring, and smoke it.

  11. Why is Florida State no longer listed on the Oversigning Cup list?

    They are oversigned. I believe they were 5 over at last count.

  12. I wonder if Josh still loves the way Tressel runs his program now? if he is still such the shining beacon of coach-hood. Especially with 375 NCAA violations since taking the head coach position at OSU.

    • the 375 was for the total athletic programs. OSU has a tact of bury the bastards in paper so the ones we bury won’t get noticed. Guess it didn’t work this time. JT has been since dirty prior to taking the OSU job.

    • Ohio state also has 36 major NCAA sports, which is about 12 more than most other schools. So yes, they are going to have more minor violations, due to the fact that they also have more sports than any other college.

      • 375 is only the ones the reported. Did they report the cars being given to players? What else did they not report?

        • The 375 violations were reported to the Cols. Dispatch for an article they were writing. Of the 120 FBS schools, 69 gave them their stats. While 375 may be the most from that sample. without the rest of the schools, there is no way of knowing if that is in fact the highest.

    • A few years ago, Miles kicked his future starting quarterback off the team for team violations, while Tressel ignores his starting quaterback’s NCAA violations. Yet Miles is considered the unethical coach. The hypocracy on this site is ridiculous.

      • That QB had been suspended three times before he was kicked off the team for team violations that included testing positive for pot and not going to class. He was a “person of interest” in a Federal investigation, tried to use a fake ID to get on a Casino boat and got into a fight outside of a nightclub. All of that before he was kicked off the team. That Les is a real task master alright

    • Yes, it will be most interesting to see if Tressel still gets this glowing praise now that he has been proven to be a stinking liar. How many other lies has he been telling? Yoou guys wanted to defend the way he handles the Etienne Sabino thing, even though Sabino was livid at the fact he was redshirted as a freaking junior. You gave Tressel as pass.

      Go on bashing the SEC. It just makes this whole website come off like a bunch of sanctimonious tripe.

      • Are you still claiming to know how Sabino felt about the RS? Why would we have to give Tressel “a pass” for that? DeepstBoy, you don’t know sh!t.

  13. WHINERS!!!! You spend all this time and energy on practices that are LEGAL under NCAA rules. The SEC plays to win (and does), and instead of meeting the challenge head on, you rant incessantly on this website. Stop acting like a bunch of immature whiners and face the challenge!

    Oh, and last time I checked, the evil incarnate Nick Saban has not been fined $250 grand and suspended by his own university. That’s a good one Judge.

  14. This is not an OSU board or pro-Tressel board. I hope OSU gets hammered — and Oregon and Auburn — and I hope that the NCAA does not buckle under counter pressure from Southern Cal. Add that Oklahoma and Alabama have been hit with major violations by the NCAA in the past few years — and you have quite a mess.

    Still none of this means that oversigning is a good practice. As the above list of dirty programs suggest — we are in a very bad place in college football where the cheaters and unethical win the most. However, this site does not profess to address the entire world of abuses in college football — only oversigning.

    • I agree, it is not the purpose of this site to discuss current events, it is specifically about oversigning. That said, you cannot deny that Josh has elevated Jim Tressell to near sainthood at every chance, and as such his ethics have been made a major part of the argument here. I find it hard to believe that if Saban were the offender here, we wouldn’t be getting a story about how this culture of cheating and poor ethics was the root of oversigning.

      • Exactly right. Other arguements used frequently on this site to criticize the SEC are the “win at all costs” attitude, the blind allegiance given to successful coaches, and a set of priorities in which football success is favored over academics. I’ve never argued that these things don’t exist to some extent in the SEC, but always felt that it existed across the board and wasn’t isolated to the SEC.

        I think the following quotes from an ESPN article are pretty telling:

        “Wherever we end up, Jim Tressel is our football coach. He is our coach, and we trust him implicitly.” – Ohio State AD

        “No, are you kidding? Let me be very clear. I’m just hoping the coach doesn’t dismiss me.” – Ohiio State President

        It sounds like the AD and President are more likely to give Tressel a big raise and a contract extension than fire him. Why? Because he wins.

      • Don’t intent to generate the free pass for Josh, but Saint James had many fooled. Notably OSU fan. Life lessons are sometimes painful. Hope Josh learned this one.

  15. Jim Tressel doesn’t oversign because he is such a morally superior coach. SEC coaches are bad men who lie. This seems to be the premise of this site. I think we all can now say that is bullcrap. Jim Tressel is as much of a sleaze bag as any SEC coach.

    • Nice to see your acknowlegement that the SEC coaches are sleaze bags. Some of us have believed that for a long time. Some of us also believed that Tressel was worse than that. It is much worst to portray an image of a saint while lying through you teeth. Most of the SEC coaches don’t pretend to be saints, now that Urban has retired.

  16. Internet boards are flowing with rationalizations. My favorite – “he was under a gag order from the Feds.” I would be interested to hear from Mandel and Schlabach which columns got the the most vitriolic (quantity and quality) response — their Saban anti-os takes or their position on Tressel after last night’s presser.

    • After reading the emails, I got the impression that this information was passed on to Tressel as a favor possibly because the lawyer’s client may have wanted Tressel to know. The client may very well be a booster. Just speculating…..

    • Unless the owner of the tat parlor spoke to the attorney as a client, there is no client- attorney privilege. They could be friends or the tat parlor owner could be the drug supplier to the attorney for all we know. Nothing published has stated that the attorney is representing the tat parlor owner or not.

      • So Tressel was the guy’s lawyer now? I love it when people think they understand the law.

        The tipster was not the guy’s lawyer. That has been stated. But lets pretend that he was. The atty-client privilege would have existed between the atty and his client. If the atty gave Tressel a heads up, he breached privilege. But under no circumstances whatsoever would Tressel have been bound by confidentiality.

        • Then how was he in an atty-client relationship? How did privilege apply in any way to him?

          Go to law school (or at least high school) before you start popping off about the law.

      • DP,

        I don’t claim to know the law in this instance. The lawyer in this instance is an ex OSU linebacker who played while Tressel was either a GA or first year position coach. He has had his license revoked once already. Not the most upstanding citizen, so it wouldn’t surprise me that he would feed info to Tressel in violation of the privilege.

        I guess we’ll see when the suit if filed against him.

    • You should be careful with how much you celebrate the Tressel news. You might appear to not be as “in the middle” as you’ve tried to pretend.

      • I am not celebrating – just noting similarities in behavior. You like to pretend that the respective conference fan bases represent some sort of crucial cultural difference – one willing to defend any behavior in defense of winning, the other more willing to exercise some perspective. I don’t buy it, and I’ll feel free to point it out.

        I had some nice things to say about Tressel. I notice you passed right over those.

      • So what’s your story, TD? A Texas native who went to Athens? A Georgia grad relocated to Texas?

  17. Interesting to me that this website’s poster child (seems to be) Nick Saban. Also interesting that while at Mich State, LSU, and UA the NCAA has not had any issues at all with these programs. The simple fact is that Saban plays to win and outworks his competition. The record indicates he does so within the rules.

    Lastly, the SEC plainly maximizes its roster capabilities, but within NCAA rules. The fact that the Big 10 decided to (marginally) limit its competitiveness by stipulating a max 25 per year was their choice. Congratulations, you made a policy that is arguably more honorable than the SEC. But please stop the whining about SEC dominance because of something the Big 10 imposed upon itself.

    • You need to update your talking points. Georgia and Florida officials have recently condemned Saban’s behavior as “morally reprehensible” and “repugnant” as well.

      • Machen (UF President) and McGarity (UGa AD, recently from UF) have both aimed on-the-record missiles at the SEC West in general. Both were the big news item of the day. Shouldn’t be hard to find them on Google.

        Should make for some very interesting conference meetings in June (or whenever they do it).

        Personally, I expect to see some semantic adjustments relative to the sign-place thing (same basic practice, just with the LOI removed from the equation) and a new rule which connects APR to some roster accountability at the conference level – which puts Nutt squarely in the headlights while keeping Alabama and LSU out of harms way. Call it the Nutt Rules II and III.

  18. I wonder if over signing is more a critical issue with the Big Ten folks than lying to the NCAA, covering up violations of there players. It seems only fitting that with OSU will now face sanctions for major violations, which could include lack of institutional control and being in the repeat violator window, that this is a much bigger problem than over signing. More window dressing for the big ten, try to focus the medias attention away from other issues.

    • Maybe Josh will sweep through some of these responses and delete them? He could always say that it was under the guise of trying to keep the conversation focused on what he wants it to be. This site tried to move very quickly through the whole Tatt 5 scandal, and now I suppose it will try to do the same thing with Tressel’s lying.

      The primary premise of this site has been “Big Ten model good, SEC model bad” and “competitive advantage”. I suppose that’s really only true as long as we are willing to overlook lying to the NCAA to cover up for athletes that also broke NCAA rules. But by all means, let’s keep the focus on whether or not a doctor declared a kid with ten concussions from playing any more. That’s far more important than worrying about a coach who is lying to keep a few players on the field so that he can win as much as possible. No, it’s not at all a competitive advantage to keep five players that you couldn’t possibly win without on the field.

      • Delany’s pushed that button deliberately at several times, which always struck me as a rather pointless and short-sighted strategy. He’s a Tar Heel, too, so I’ve been willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but my impression has always been that he was simply creating an even greater backlash when scandal inevitably found its way to one of his campuses.

        The three biggest college football scandals going right now – at least to the extent that actual coaches have been implicated – reside in Chapel Hill, Columbus, and Knoxville. (Oregon’s still up in the air). No conference can claim to a moral high ground in this sport, and to the extent one tries, it just creates needless divisions. Big 10 and SEC fans have enough combined passion to move mountains when it comes to CFB reforms – unless they’re at each others’ throats.

        SEC fans would gladly throw Nutt under the bus and wrap all sorts of rules around him. Most seemed genuinely sympathetic to stories like Elliott Porter, and when the heat turns down, you see a lot of comments on SEC boards that something should be done. But then someone starts attacking THEIR family, and we’re right back to the SEC/Big 10 thing.

        • If I wanted to bring someone or something down a notch, I would do like the author of this site has done and find something I think represents a vulnerability and then attack it. If you’re the attacker and everyone knows where your allegiances lie, as we all do here, then as long as your own house is in order, you have some chance of success.

          The main strategy has been to point out that, while no rules are being broken here, there is an ethical issue. “Our” coaches in the Big ten, apnd particularly Jim Tressel, are out to make sure these “young men” are given an education and, while we’re at it, some lessons in morality, as laid down by the scion of virtue himself. Now, bnig bad SEC, don’t you feel inferior since we’ve pointed out how we look after our boys here?

          Yes, it would appear that Tressel really DOES look after his boys–to the extent that he will break NCAA rules, lie to them, and then lie to his bosses, because he is “concerned for their safety”.

          When the whole Tatt 5 thing came out, the author of the site went quiet for a day or two, but then cam right back with guns ablazin’, as though none of that ever happened. And tried to take the moral high road once again. Everyone that responds to the “articles” on this site allowed him to do it. Now there IS no moral high road.

          • Your post makes sense only if you believe that OSU represented the only example of a program that takes the “moral high road.” Any one who is aware of TP’s “perpetual car loaner” program at OSU would never have selected OSU as the standard.

            What does make sense is that the group of practices bundled together under the single concept of “oversignng” is on its face unethical, in opposition to the values of college athletics, and is abused by some universities to a degree that the outliers that is outrageous. As has correctly been pointed out — the Big 12, the SEC and C-USA seem to be on the edge in how far they push this practice. Are there other abuses in addition to oversigning. Absolutely. This site focuses on one abuse.

            If there was a site that discussed all forms of unethical, abusive and illegal activities in college football, then oversigning would only be a small part of the conversation. If I had a site, I would spotlight the disparities in graduation rates between African-American and non-AA football players at some universities — a disparity that in my opinion is far more cynical, unethical and egregious than oversigning; a disparity that at times would appear to be a form of “benign racism.” The downfall of OSU does not mean that Arkansas, Miss State, South Carolina, Kansas State and Troy do not have problems.

            • Of course it doesn’t, but this certainly falls into the classic “Why are you focused on the splinter in my eye, when there is a plank in yours?” question. Sorry, but there is a significant difference between pounding someone for doing something that isn’t (currently) against the rules, when your own program has players exchanging gear for tattoos and your coach is covering it all up and deceiving the school and the NCAA.

            • In the Middle is a serious apologist for oversigning. So he’s constructed this bogus “Big 10 moral high ground” argument even though the Big 10 has officially said next to nothing on the topic of oversigning in the SEC.

              He also conveniently ignores the fact that the officials who have most heavily condemned the practice so far are at Florida and Georgia.

              In the Middle doesn’t want anything changed and has made that clear.

              • Oh, and now who’s playing freely with the truth?

                I’ve routinely suggested that the best way to solve this problem remains empowering the students rather than throwing more useless regulations at coaches:

                Example – “I’ve studied a lot of social movements, and the ones that tried to tie the hands of the “wrong-doers” usually fail in the end. Oh, they get rules passed. But then they find themselves climbing the same mountain all over again. The movements that empower the ones wronged usually work. It’s that simple for me.

                You see an SEC problem. I see a CFB problem. If that offends your sensibilities, so be it.”

                Jim Tressel just broke NCAA Rule 1. A top attorney on NCAA matters called it the NCAA equivalent of “capital murder.” Big 10 coaches are not immune to competitive pressures, and Big 10 teams seem to lose 30 to 40 percent of the kids they entice to campus.

                Want to protect the kids? Remove the coach’s control over their academic scholarship. Let him be in charge of his roster and make football decisions, which is what football coaches do. Let the university educate the kids. If a coach moves a kid off the roster, he can stay and complete his education or transfer immediately without penalty to any university he chooses.

                This problem solved, along with numerous others.

                • But don’t let the kids leave for a lack of playing time. It will be the excuse used when nefarious coach A convinces the kid he can start on his team if he would just come on down.

                  for you SEC fans, down is part of the phrase not an intimation of direction.

                  Unless the NCAA can find some what to get a hold on the runners and street agents, these kids will be hounded daily to make a move.

                  In the business world recruiters get paid on retainer or contingency placements. Same holds true in the street agent world.

                  • “But don’t let the kids leave for a lack of playing time”

                    Correct.

                    • I have to disagree with this line of thinking, I’m afraid. If you deny the student the opportunity to transfer for more playing time, you have taken away some of his options. On a team with 85 scholarship players and over 100 players, you are going to have a handfull that are unhappy. Unless you want to reduce the scholarship and roster limits to more closely match the NFL’s (also not a good idea) then you are going to have players that think they should be playing more than they are, and think that they can get it if they transfer. By eliminating the one-year penalty for transfers, you are making it much easier to transfer – making every player essentially a free agent (also not a good thing) I do like what you want to accomplish, but I don’t think this does it.

        • and Auburn. The Cecil Newton case is still being investigated.

  19. What was Jim Tressel’s plan???

  20. I can’t speak for the owner of this site. But in my opinion, this is not a SEC vs. Big 10 thing. And for anyone who looks at that way — on either side — you’re missing the point of the whole debate.

    Oversigning is not against the rules, but I think as a practice there is much to object about it. I think the NCAA, the university presidents, and the conference leadership need to put an end to it.

    What Tressel did IS against the rules. And as we figure out who knew what and when, we’ll find out exactly how severe was his offense. But no doubt about it, he or tOSU should be sanctioned commensurate with the infraction.

    And then we have all sorts of other issues at OSU…AJ Hawk claiming $3000 cash was stolen after filing a burglary report to the police. WTF? Not trust banks, AJ? Or TPryor getting pulled over 3 different times with 3 different “borrowed cars”. And I’m sure there’s more, not just at OSU, but college football teams all over the country.

    At the heart of this debate is whether or not college athletes are professional or amateur athletes.

    Frankly, I don’t have a horse in this race personally, so I don’t care. Either make them professional or make them amateur, and just decide one way or the other with clearly defined boundaries for both.

    Professional athletes get the benefits of money, compensation, sometimes fame, sponsorships, perks, etc. The flip side is that professional athletes can lose their contract. They can can get injured and be unemployed. They survive by their on-field performance, and rightfully so. Oversigning is totally legit. They’re getting paid to perform and it’s that simple. They can be told to practice 12 hours a day and to compete 8 months per year.

    Amateur scholar athletes get the benefits of people looking out for the best interest in school, being treated equally to all other scholar athletes, regardless of sport or ability, the university advocating for their best interests as students.

    In exchange for that protection, they forego compensation and pay.

    Frankly, I don’t care which way you think is better. But we as fans need to make a decision. If we want professional, paid athletes, then let’s start another league, fully divorced from higher education, where players can develop and be farmed into NFL players. Pay them with hookers, blow, and whatever you want.

    Or we keep them as amateurs. But then we tell them no payola on the side. No auctioning off your jersey in exchange for under-the-table payments. No boosters “lending” you their 2012 Expedition or paying your parents’ mortgage.

    The problem is that we two diametrically opposed philosophies trying to play the same game. In my book, they’re both good. We just need to pick which one we want and stick with it.

    • It’s not an SEC vs. Big Ten thing for you personally, perhaps, but make no mistake that the reason for starting the website is that very thing, no matter how getting the “issue” out there is cloaked.

      I agree with many of your points. But the author of the site has specifically tried to keep eyes trained on the moralizing he has been trying to do in only one direction, and that is against something he thinks the SEC is doing that creates a competitive advantage, even if it’s by the rules.

      What Tressel did was to try and garner a competitive advantage while BREAKING the rules. And only someone who was wearing blinders could see it any other wat. Public opinion on this issue has come down hard and fast against Tressel, Gee, and Smith on this, and it is only going to get worse if that triumvirate insists on staying on their high horses like that did in that presser yesterday, which was a total joke.

      No one who is a fan of Ohio State should be sponsoring a website like this one when his own program is doing this kind of cheating. Not exploiting “loopholes”. Not coloring outside some moral lines imposed by an outsider. Cheating. In order to create a clear competitive advantage.

      • I agree with much of what you say, too. Tressel should be nailed for this, and frankly, I’d like to see a real investigation done with Pryor, Cam Newton, and the like.

        The problem is that when the comments turn into a SEC vs. Big Ten slugfest, it takes away the credibility of all the legitimate complaints on all the sides involved. I still stand by my convictions that oversigning is inappropriate for student-athletes, as it crosses the line into pro- and semi-pro sports management.

        And despite the author’s alleged bias against the SEC, I purport that if the conversation were to stay focused on oversigning as a legitimately debatable offense, then those commenters who see Josh as “the enemy” can retain their credibility and totally nail Tressel and tOSU to the cross on their own website.

        Perhaps, “TPryorShouldFocusonFootballAndQuitPretendingHesKanye.com” would be appropriate.

        As the debate devolves into, “well, you’re just saying this because you’re jealous of SEC dominance”…it starts to sound like the normal BS we hear on sports talk radio. Raise the level of the debate and we can see real change.

        Both on oversigning, and the RAMPANT VIOLATIONS of inappropriate booster behavior for OSU and many, many other college football programs in the country.

        MAKE IT A FAIR PLAYING FIELD…either START A SEMI-PRO LEAGUE AND PAY THESE GUYS, or protect their amateur status and TREAT THEM THAT WAY.

  21. JMAN: From what I’ve read, oversigning – as is currently practiced – is not a “legitimately debatable offense”, as if the practive were an offense, those schools guilty of the practice would be subject to NCAA sanctions.

    What we have is a lot or moralizing about a practive that some people for a variety of reasons find objectionable. Now, those who do find the practice objectionable can continue to rant about it, and they can pressure the NCAA, the universities, or the conferences to ban it. But at this time one cannot call “oversigning” a violation of anything except a subjective standard; that is, what is “appropriate” or not.
    Of course, “oversigning” is a Big Ten violation, but that’s the Big Ten’s business and no one else’s.

  22. Octavian –

    You are correct, and I stand corrected for choosing wrong words. Oversigning is not an offense of any kind. I do continue to stand by my belief that whether it should be an offense is worth considerable debate at both the conference and NCAA level.

    Touche, if you will.
    J


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