Quick Update
We have been busy the last couple of days exchanging emails with Ramogi Huma, President at NCPA and Chad Hawley, Associate Commissioner from the Big 10 Conference regarding oversigning. We have two interesting pieces coming, hopefully later tonight, if not we'll have them up tomorrow. Here are some tidbits.
1. Ramogi Huma brought it to our attention that he provided testimony during a legislative hearing in the state of Connecticut to propose legislation that would require institutions to state whether or not they engage in oversigning and if they do what the ramifications are for the student-athlete. There were several other topics discussed during the hearing and included in the proposal. In addition, Mr. Huma was gracious enough to do a question and answer session with us via email, in which he has some very interesting comments on the topic of oversigning, and we will be sharing that with you soon as well.
2. In an effort to continue to work on the recruiting numbers for the oversigning cup, we sent a request to Chad Hawley regarding the numbers for Big 10 Conference teams, in addition, we asked Mr. Hawley to share with us how the Big 10 rules work for monitoring the signing process, specifically the monitoring of oversigning. As with Mr. Huma, Mr. Hawley was gracious enough to give us a detailed account of how the Big 10 office monitors oversigning and we will be sharing that with you as well. Note: Mr. Hawley sheds some light on a few things we did not know that all of you should find very interesting.
Thanks for reading! Updates coming soon!
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March 9th, 2011 - 23:14
So much for the all inclusive moral high ground.
March 10th, 2011 - 07:22
Jim Tressel is publicly against oversigning – what he is NOT aginst, however, is stonewalling information on his starting players bartering their garb with known criminals in order to keep them eligible. Yeah, that’s WAY better.
March 10th, 2011 - 07:46
Items unrelated to oversigning (e.g., sunspots, public employee unions, Libya and Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Charlie Sheen & Lindsay Lohan) are irrelevant to the topic of this forum.
March 10th, 2011 - 08:15
I’m not buying to DP’s argument, but you can’t build a web site using Big 10 moral superiority as a key ingredient and then just blow by these sorts of things as if they don’t exist.
Michigan. Iowa. Ohio State. How many times can someone claim that these sorts of things are not relevant to the issue of oversigning, all the while cherry-picking “good” Big 10 stories to create a conversation about “cultural mindsets?” It strongly resembles a selective bias.
Example: OSU’s Longo transferred last month, and the Cleveland PD article plainly stated that the timing in part due to OSU’s need to raise its signing budget prior to signing day. The exact sort of thing proponents of the Big 10 Rule say does not happen. If you want to rip programs for encouraging transfers prior to that conference’s key roster deadlines, then you have to be willing to be even about it. Focusing only February to September seems a rather convenient way of ignoring the extent to which Big 10 school’s create cap space in December and January.
I know Joshua has undertaken a gargantuan effort, and it’s probably too much to ask him to catch everything. But I understand why people think Joshua has a clear bias. It looks that way to me as well at times.
I consider this constructive criticism. I am sure TD will disagree. Probably Joshua as well.
March 10th, 2011 - 09:40
It’s also not possible to look at OSU’s QB situation and not see that there almost has to be a transfer upcoming. There are 5 QBs on the team, and the three that aren’t seniors this year (Braxton Miller, Kenny Guiton, and Taylor Graham) would all like to be competing for playing time. Miller isn’t going anywhere, but I would bet a lot of money that Guiton or Graham is gone after Spring Practice. It would certainly appear that OSU is “oversigned” at least at that position.
But ITM is right. Regardless of how important the author may feel that it is to ‘stay on point”, he simply cannot ignore the fact that the premise he has put out for this site is that “oversigning isn’t illegal, but it’s immoral and unethical–look at how ETHICAL we are in the big ten”, and then fail to acknowledge this. He laid low for a couple of days after TattGate, but it’s going to look absurd if he doesn’t stand up and acknowledge this. As much as he has focused his attention on Nick Saban, Saban has not been sanctioned and suspended by his own school for breaking NCAA rules in a MAJOR violation.
Frankly, it is downright ludicrous to think that an OSU fan could think he could try and keep hammering a coach who has never been sanctioned in this way, while his own coach, that time after time he has held out as the most laudable example of what a coach should be, is being lambasted and pilloried for an out-and-out deception.
March 10th, 2011 - 10:37
What’s comical is the complete failure of many on this site to acknowledge any shortcomings of their own programs, while at the same time hammering other programs for unethical conduct.
You have the owner of this site conveniently ignoring tattoo-gate, Tressel’s signing of a kid that likes to trick girls into taking off their clothes and photographing them, the fact that everytime the starting qb is pulled over he is driving a “loaner car,” etc. Then you have a UGA fan who won’t talk about all the arrests under Richt or the atrocious graduation rate of african-american players at UGA, and you have a Nebraska fan that has somehow completely erased the entire Lawrence Philips fiasco from his memory and continues to believe that Osborne is beyond reproach. Yet all three do not hesitate to call other programs unethical (one of the three also repeatedly calls out other posters as being unithical).
Any mention of these incidents never elicits a response, yet conclusions such as “Saban lies to his recruits” are drawn with no hard evidence and sweeping generalizations such as “all SEC West schools are unethical” are made. This site has lost credibility.
Notice how we still don’t have accurate “oversigning” numbers more than a month after signing day? This site is not about facts, it is about generating hype and throwing a bunch of unsupported numbers out there to support a conclusion that has already been made. Any issues that detract from this conclusion are ignored. Certain people on this site turned the oversigning issue into an ethical one, and now they have to live with the fallout.
March 10th, 2011 - 11:42
But of course, you are in the middle.
Comical.
March 10th, 2011 - 11:49
Yes, I suppose to be “in the middle” from your perspective I would have to agree with everything you and Joshua say without a word to the contrary.
How does that work, TD? What does a “middle” perspective sound like to you?
March 10th, 2011 - 12:06
I don’t know what the middle perspective is on this issue, but I don’t see a bit of difference in your position and that of, say, Alabama’s.
March 10th, 2011 - 12:17
So you don’t know what the middle perspective looks like? That explains a lot.
Let me tell you — it sees a wider problem and a better solution.
Example: “I’ve studied a lot of social movements, and the ones that tried to tie the hands of the “wrong-doers” usually fail in the end. Oh, they get rules passed. But then they find themselves climbing the same mountain all over again. The movements that empower the ones wronged usually work. It’s that simple for me.
You see an SEC problem. I see a CFB problem. If that offends your sensibilities, so be it.”
Saban’s a football coach. So is Tressel. Let them be coaches. Remove their authority over the kid’s education. Playing time and being on the team provides both of them with more than enough to motivate the kids who want to play to college football. And let kids who don’t work out at program X transfer anywhere they want without a penalty.
Problem solved.
March 10th, 2011 - 14:27
Chuy,
Yes Lawrence Phillips was CHARGED with domestic violence but NEVER CONVICTED. You are one of those guys who goes against the “innocent until proven guilty”. Osborne was probably a little more informed than some hot head blogger could possibly be in 2011 (yes you). And you attack a legendary coach on 2 or 3 bullets over his entire coaching career and as athletic director. It is like running circles with you. You know oversigning is unethical so you try and attack the teams of people on this site who are trying to stop it.
This is the difference of in comparing oversigning to the Ohio St. Tressel suspension. Oversigning is performed by an adult, head football coach and figurehead of a University. He is committing the wrong here! He is the engine to this wrong. Ohio St. Tressel suspension (though not defending it at all, just different topic) is the players committing the wrong. These are kids 17-23 making these decision and you guys are trying to compare these decisions to a grown man. The coaches are supposed to try and keep their entire roster out of trouble on a daily basis and some will fall through the cracks. This is why I quit responding to any of your comments because you never make sense, you never have new ideas and you are not willing to listen to why oversigning might be bad.
March 10th, 2011 - 14:51
Do you afford the same to Saban? The acusations against his program, and the basis for it being unethical is built completely on assumptions. Is he innocent until proven guilty? Or does this not apply for perceived ethics?
Wrong. What the players did was minor in scope. Similar to AJ Green at Georgia – of course he was suspended for the first 4 games (immediately) but no penalty was given to Georgia because they reported it correctly. A better comparison is Bruce Pearl at Tennessee. He lied to the NCAA in their investigation, but later confessed to it (didn’t take a Yahoo article to force it). The SEC imposed an 8-game (conference games) suspension. JT hid the information he had. He did not report the violations to the NCAA and used players that he knew should be ineligable. These are actions that Tressel did. These are violations of NCAA rules, and major ones at that. Say he did it to protect the kids all you want, but he did it to win games. To acheive a competetive advantage if you like that term. What about the other 100 kids on the team? How do they feel now that the entire 2010 season will be voided (including that historic Sugar Bowl victory over an SEC team). Does he only look out for the welfare of some players or is winning football games more important than following the rules afterall?
March 10th, 2011 - 15:15
Seriously? Philips went on to serve years in prison for subsequent violent offenses. You are right, Osborne was more in-the-know, and he should have known that he was a ticking time bomb.
Overall I think Osborne was probably a stand-up coach and human being. But he makes compromises just like any other coach. I don’t buy in to the argument that Osborne (or Tressel or Richt or whoever)necessarily means good and Saban necessarily means evil, and that is what some on here have implied. Many people have turned it into an ethical argument i.e. “my team doesn’t oversign because my school/coach is more ethical. Nonsense. Recruiting is a dirty business, and no one is 100% a model citizen when it comes to the big-business of college football (although Paterno may be an exception, as much as I hate to say it).
I don’t attack anyone trying to stop oversigning — I think there are many valid reasons why it should be addressed. Many of those reasons have been brought to light on this site. I only point out the hypocracy of those who claim a moral high ground and tell other posters that they are unethical (or their schools/coaches are unethical) if they don’t agree with the everything the oversigning crowd believes.
And, no, I don’t know if oversigning is unethical. A lot depends on the circumstances. It is not black and white as some people claim.
As for Tressel, you don’t think his lying about what information he had was wrong?
March 10th, 2011 - 19:50
Chuy,
You are right, Phillips did go to prison to server a sentence for an offense, NOT the indecent at Nebraska. He was never convicted. Moving on. Yes recruiting is a dirty business. Pelini was always criticized for not being a good recruiter while at LSU. He is on record as saying saying how he will not be part of the unethical recruiting practices of the SEC. This comment holds true because he has pulled some of the best recruiting classes in Nebraska history….
What circumstances do you refer to? The 12 medical hardships Saban has had in 4 years all while trying to make the Aug 1st deadline? 12 in 4 years? 12 in 4 years!?
I am not defending Tressel on bit. I am not a fan of Ohio State or Tressel. He lied and that is unacceptable but that is a completely different topic than oversigning. Simple as that. I am not out to ‘get’ every coach who gets in trouble by the NCAA, I am out to stop oversigning. Done.
March 10th, 2011 - 21:42
Re: Phillips, note my use of the word “subsequent.” Just out of curiosity, do you have a link to the Pelini quote? I think he’s a good coach and will do well at Neb.
March 11th, 2011 - 16:25
i dont but it was a quote from a local paper right after he was hired and moved here.
March 10th, 2011 - 22:30
Is this unethical? Link provided. Mr. Hothead himself. Embarrassing a kid on television like that, under those circumstances. From the article: “Perhaps the most alarming incident came during the second quarter when Pelini dressed down Martinez after the quarterback had just received treatment after re-injuring right ankle. Pelini poked his finger in Martinez’s chest and yelled in his face as the cameras rolled.
Love this quote: “What happens in house stays in house.” What is he trying to hide? Sounds very defensive to me. Sounds like he cares more about winning than his student-athlete to me.
http://www.aolnews.com/2010/11/22/nebraska-coach-bo-pelini-expresses-regret-apologizes-for-sideli/
March 11th, 2011 - 16:27
and if you would actually do research then you would know it had nothing to do with the injured ankle. He was playing games on his cell phone in the locker room while the trainers and doctors looked at his ankle. Nice try!
March 11th, 2011 - 21:55
Exactly, you make my point. Do some research before you talk about something you have limited knowledge on. Thank you.
March 10th, 2011 - 18:50
That doesn’t solve the problem of oversigning at all.
There’s an easy, long-tested solution to the problem that you choose to ignore simply b/c it would actually do what you don’t want which is largely eliminate oversigning.
March 10th, 2011 - 20:19
Which does not eliminate running off players. Hasn’t in the Big 10. Won’t in the SEC. Just moves the dates.
March 10th, 2011 - 08:20
The underlying theme of this site is “sleazy activity that enables an unfair advantage”. A secondary theme is “Big 10′s moral superiority over that other conference”. These points are, in that regard, just a wee bit more relevant than the stories of Ms. Lohan, et al.
March 10th, 2011 - 10:15
Not to defend him or OSU, but at least Tressel has committed his “unethical act” in attempt to protect his players. AND yes win also!
The unethical issues that this site is attempting to make is that the “unethical actions” taken by the coaches in question, mainly in the SEC, regarding oversigning harm the student athlete.
March 10th, 2011 - 10:24
I might have been willing to entertain that assertion, but I then I look back at how Josh handled the Big Ten loophole revelation. When Josh thought that Big Ten rules prohibited oversigning completely, he argued that oversigning by even one player was unethical, harmful to players, and should be banned by the NCAA. Then, he found out that the Big Ten rules actually allow oversigning by 3. Without batting an eye, he flipped his position. Oversigning by 1, 2, or 3 was no longer unethical or harmful to players. That’s when I concluded that this site is not about protecting the welfare of players. It’s about negating the Big Ten’s self-imposed competitive advantage.
March 10th, 2011 - 10:35
Make that “competitive disadvantage”
March 10th, 2011 - 12:35
I do agree that the BIG 10 is not always the end all, be all of honor and ethics. (OSU) We all know that the +3 move was made in order to lesson some of the “competitive disadvantage” that existed. Not to mention that it was lobbied by a former SEC coach. No matter how you slice it, the rules that the Big 10 has in place are much more in the interest of the student athlete, than the lack of rules and policing of those rules that the SEC has.
March 10th, 2011 - 18:22
The SEC operates by the same rules as the Pac10, Big 12, ACC, Big East, CUSA, MWC, WAC, etc… It’s the Big Ten who is the outlier, not the SEC.
The +3 rule was lobbied by a former SEC coach but it was approved by eleven Big Ten presidents/ADs. And if they don’t like it, there’s absolutely nothing stopping them from repealing it.
March 11th, 2011 - 16:28
and how many teams in all the other conferences are consistently operating on an oversigned roster? Yeah, fewer teams than the SEC.
March 11th, 2011 - 16:49
Noone is operating on an oversigned roster. That would be against the rules.
March 10th, 2011 - 11:45
And yet the site has been widely cited by numerous media members and has top officials like Chad Hawley willing to support it.
For all the time you’ve wasted here, vesper, you had been badly beaten by Joshua. Enjoy.
March 10th, 2011 - 12:11
Ouch. That hurts. The poster who is widely regarded as being a complete joke and unable to bring anything to the discussion besides ridiculous insults thinks that I’ve been beaten. The first time that TD posts something of actual value in the discussion, then I might actually care about his opinion.
Congrats on the 5 recruiting violations by the way.
March 10th, 2011 - 18:51
Officials at wealthier, better academically ranked SEC universities are now publicly siding with Joshua. The rules changes are very clearly coming.
You lost. Joshua won.
Good stuff.
March 10th, 2011 - 19:05
Are you sure about that?
The Big Ten recently submitted a proposal to the NCAA that would have imposed signing limits (read “ban oversigning”) in baseball. In the words of the Big Ten’s Associate Commissioner, the proposal “went down in flames” because “it didn’t get any national support”. He went on to say, “The other part of it is just because something makes sense philosophically to you doesn’t necessarily mean it’s right for everybody else”
But go on believing that everyone outside of the SEC West is on your side of the issue.
March 10th, 2011 - 11:46
Make no mistake — what Tressel did is the NCAA equivalent of “capital murder,” in the words of a couple of attorneys who specialize in the defense of universities facing NCAA violations.
UCLA fired Jim Harrick for falsifying an expense report in order to hide a free dinner for some players.
The NCAA simply cannot function if the coaches refuse to be the front lines in the compliance effort. That’s why USC got drilled. That’s why my football program is going to get hammered. That’s why Tressel’s “my motives were pure but my execution regrettable” defense drew such immediate outrage from every sports writer in the country.
March 10th, 2011 - 12:05
No doubt.
Tressel’s behavior was highly unethical. So is Nick Saban’s.
March 10th, 2011 - 12:22
Sure it is. Along with about half of the other D-1 coaches out there. Which, just as Tressel and Pearl prove, means that another NCAA regulation saying, “Please stop,” won’t change a thing.
If you want to protect the kids, put that power in their own hands.
March 10th, 2011 - 14:25
Or make the implications for such behavior severe enough to stop all but the most nefarious. You won’t weed them all out, but you will get rid of a bunch.
Tressel should be fired for his actions.
I’m embarrassed that Jim Delaney has done nothing and won’t. Gutless.
March 10th, 2011 - 14:35
1. The Reggie Bush suspensions could be stopped by the NFL by ‘black balling’ unethical agents.
2. The NCAA is attempting to stop the Pearl texts and they have.
3. The Tressel suspension SHOULD have been stopped by the compliance department.
4. The oversigning topic will be brought to lite and stopped thanks to the help of this site.
March 10th, 2011 - 15:18
NFL agents played no role in the Bush-USC sanctions. Lake and Michaels were marketing wanna-bes. The Players Union has suspended Wichard for his connections to Blake, but it took the North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation to bring that to light. The NCAA never uncovered that information, because they lacked subpoena power.
The NCAA basically made Sampson unemployable at the college level for illegal contacts. Hasn’t really seemed to deter anyone, has it?
Tressel failed on 3 separate occasions to notify his compliance department. Compliance found the emails on their own. Kudos to them for acting upon it.
Rules already existed to stop everything we just discussed. Didn’t stop it, did they?
The players need more rights, or they will always be helpless to abuses from coaches. No matter how many rules you pass.
March 10th, 2011 - 16:41
Then give the NCAA the power of the subpoena. I know it will draw the ire of anyone not liking “the man” ,in all of it’s various configurations, but the NCAA is helpless without it.
March 10th, 2011 - 20:25
I would love it, but that’s fundamentally a state power, I think. For example, the NCAA can’t get Wichard’s financials, no matter how much power universities vest in the COI.
But it would be nice to find a way to give the NCAA’s investigators more teeth, rather than relying on self-disclosure and Yahoo’s 12 man sports department.
March 10th, 2011 - 20:35
and we know all states will exercise their power equally.
For a 12 man sports department, they are one of probably one doing real investigative journalism. Shame that role is dying a quick death. Shame for much more than college football.
March 10th, 2011 - 18:52
And yet the problem of oversigning has been basically entirely eliminated in the Big 10.
No wonder you oppose the Big 10′s rules being adopted elsewhere.
March 10th, 2011 - 19:10
Basically, entirely?
It hasn’t been eliminated. Any running off of talent that is done is done earlier and there are many examples of grayshirts in the Big 10.
The numbers have always been much lower in the big 10 than the SEC, if you are looking for a comparison between the two conferences so their fans can continue their gritching match.
There are valuable uses of the gray shirt process and many kids have achieved greatness and degrees from BCS schools after attending prep.
It’s the extremes that need to be dealt with and a greater transparency in the process that will uncover more of them.
March 10th, 2011 - 22:16
Lets see what sleazy and unethical conduct looks like up close. Link provided. A pathetic college coach offering one kid an athletic scholarship so as to entice his close friend to sign a scholarship at the same university. Notice that the one kid had NO other offers from any other schools. Notice how this kid just happened to be the close friend to the number one rated high school running back in the country. Can it be more blatantly obvious that that coach and that university don’t care about the sleaze factor or about ethics?
http://blogs.ajc.com/recruiting/2011/01/19/georgia-gets-commitment-from-isaiah-crowells-teammate-quintavious-harrow/?cxntfid=blogs_recruiting
March 10th, 2011 - 22:34
Oh, I forgot. He didn’t oversign so that makes him a fine upstanding head coach who is completely ethical because he did not oversign…please.
March 11th, 2011 - 16:38
as you defenders of oversigning like to defend with, the friend who only had 1 offer still had the one offer. He would have went to Georgia and been part of the team without being forced out by some story made up by the coaches or a false medical hardship.
March 10th, 2011 - 10:31
Well said Vesper!
March 10th, 2011 - 12:04
I don’t claim to speak for anyone but myself, but I have always viewed this site as place to discuss oversigning and all the issues around it. Issues like grayshirting recruits, running off players that don’t reach the 3 deep by a certain point, signing recruits that have no real opportunity to get into school, and parking these recruits at friendly prep schools.
I could very well have just ignored any perceived Big 10 holier than thou attitudes, but the Big 10 has issues around it just like every other conference. You might want to use Tressel’s actions as a slam against the Big 10. You would be better off using them as a slam against OSU alone, as Jim Tressel does not represent anyone but himself and the institution that is keeping him employed. I’ll be damned if PSU is going to be smeared by association.
March 10th, 2011 - 12:33
Paterno definitely deserves a statue.
I still can’t believe he’s 5 years OLDER than Dean Smith and still coaching. The right way.
March 10th, 2011 - 12:51
He already has, at least one. Sorry for the diatribe. Unfortunately, the benefits of CIC membership through being a member of the Big 10 far outweigh not being a member.
March 10th, 2011 - 12:19
Everyone should read (and reread) Chuy’s take. Dead on. I was going to comment that USC’s numbers are STILL WRONG. In fact, the link that is attached refutes this site’s very numbers. As someone else stated, the agenda of this site is to protect tattoOSU and the Big Ten from programs that regularly thump them – USC and the SEC.
As for the tOSU situation, nobody should be fooled by Tressel’s supposed “piety.” Check how he ran things back at Youngtown St. and how his relationships with various car dealerships there have carried over to benefiting his players in Columbus. The guy is not, and never has been, a paragon of ethics.
March 10th, 2011 - 13:27
78Lion: you do understand that many players who have played for four years schools have had to attend a JUCO for a year or two in order to get their grades up? I cite OJ Simpson as an example.
Does some rational reason exist to prohibit JUCO players from transferring to four year institutions?
March 10th, 2011 - 16:56
I do and recently watch a PSU quarterback earn first team honors two years running who prepped for a year at Kiski. I understand the benefits to the kid who was close but couldn’t make it.
What Nutt did was different. He purposely recruited a large number of kids, many that had no chance, for the sole purpose of establishing drawing relationships with a few choice JUCO coaches.
I’ve also seen, up close, a coach constantly brow beat a kid to go to the school that placed him there when he really wanted to go to Florida. He did consider PSU but his ultimate desire was Florida. The JUCO coach wouldn’t allow it and did everything within his power, including threatening grade manipulation to make sure the kid went to Maryland. The sole purpose of this coach was to not damage a relationship with a BCS coach that sent him talent.
I don’t have the statistics or the time to gather them, but it would be interesting to see how many kids ultimately went to their original LOI school. I would expect it to be the VAST majority. Yes, many would anyway, but no all.
It is also a misuse of the LOI. Why did the kids Nutt signed bother to execute an LOI when there was no intent?
March 10th, 2011 - 17:54
Its ironic having people who are “defending” oversigning saying its all about the kids. Whats moral about telling a kid “well, you might get in to college, so study hard” and he does, only to find out he can’t get in because the coach said you may have to greyshirt. Is that not out of whack to anyone? Shouldn’t kids be ENCOURAGED to study and get their grades up so they can qualify?
The “defenders” of oversigning, if you can call them that, currently ignore that fact. Its conveniently ignoring the downsides of oversigning. I don’t know that there is anyone out there who can call “oversigning” a good thing.
Sadly, most people here think its a slam on the SEC, when FLORIDA and GEORGIA are SEC members, both of whom state they dislike it!
Saying, well, IOWA did this or OSU did that is just attempting to shift the focus elsewhere. I guess if you’re ashamed of your actions, you can always point at someone else and say “well, what he did is just as bad”
March 10th, 2011 - 17:57
You’re probably right. Nevertheless, if you look at a goodly portion of the forum posts from OSU fans in the past couple of days, you will see that many of them have rationalized what Tressel did by comparing it to Cam Newton and a host of other SEC things. Nature of the beast, I am afraid.
March 10th, 2011 - 18:46
Makes them identical to those SEC fans that consistently justify oversigning. Both are too afraid to take that first step into the water of reasoned response.
Similar to those who won’t watch Fox or MSNBC because one of them say things they don’t like. They would rather stay in their cocoon of ignorance.
March 10th, 2011 - 20:39
Amen. (See TD? I can say it.)
March 10th, 2011 - 18:16
Of course kids should be encouraged to study and get their grades up so they can qualify. I’m not sure what that has to do with the scenario you outlined. If a coach tells a recruit that he may be asked to defer his enrollment by one semester and the recruit understands that and agrees to it before signing his NLI, I don’t see where the harm is done. Some recruits are willing to risk the possibility of deferring enrollment for a semester in order to attend their dream schools. The ones who don’t want to risk deferment sign with a different school.
March 10th, 2011 - 20:23
Easy, Vesper, I will be more than happy to explain it to you: expectations influence behavior; higher standards that are consistently maintained, supported and demanded will inexorably influence behavior to reach the higher standard. If you let kids know when they are freshman and sophomores in high school that JUCO or Military School is an easier option than better academic preparation and an acceptable path, more kids will be influenced to accept the easier path. If it became increasingly more difficult to transition from JUCO or Military school to State U (they will almost never be able to transfer to a good private school), then, not surprisingly, more students would opt for the path of better academic preparation. Do you now understand? How coaches frame the oversigning conversation is a barrier to raising academic expectations.
And I am no Big Ten apologist, at all. I rag endlessly on my Michigan colleagues at work that the AA graduation rate for Michigan football is only a few percentage points higher than what is reported at Alabama. And that fact that Auburn and OSU graduate only half of their AA football players is a disgrace for both universities. Oversigning is still unethical, however, and the goal of this site is to help bring the glare of unwelcome publicity onto the practice.
March 10th, 2011 - 20:50
Thanks for explaining it to me. One little problem. Your post had absolutely nothing to do with the post that I was replying to. Luke’s scenario involved a player who does qualify and then grayshirts, whereas, you’re talking about players that don’t qualify and go to JUCO or Prep school.
Really? Were you being serious when you wrote that? Let’s extend that idea out a little further. In your world, are college coaches telling recruits to flunk their exams so they won’t qualify and will be forced to go to a JUCO? Because signees losing 1 or 2 years of eligibility in Prep School/JUCO is obviously something that would be beneficial to the head coach of a 4 year college.
You’ve been harping on this academic standards/admission requirements issue for a while now. What exactly is it that you propose? Do you think that 4 year colleges should stop admitting JUCO/Prep School graduates? What are you advocating?
March 10th, 2011 - 23:22
Luke, take this instance:
A team only has a few graduating seniors and juniors leaving early. The “budget” is only 14 or 15. Without grayshirts and oversigning, that class will be very small. The same school has a lot of juniors who will graduate the next year, making a budget of 27 or 28 (more than can be signed in one year). Why not grayshirt a handfull of guys and balance out the classes? What do you say to the first kid you want that you don’t have room for, “sorry Jimmy, I’d love to have you – and if we had more room, you’d get the next offer. Too bad you were born one year too early ’cause we’d have plenty of room for you next year.”? There are a ton of kids who would gladly delay enrollment if it meant they could play at a top level school like Alabama. Why not let them? There is benefit to the grayshirt – to both the student and the school. That’s not to say that it cannot be misused – it certainly can as was shown in the Elliot Porter case. This could be solved easily enough without banning the use of something that does good more than bad.
What if we say that OSU oversigned this year? Is that relevant – cause they did. They also “cut” a player just before the signing deadline to make room for more signees. More evidence that banning oversigning through the B10 rules don’t solve the problem.
March 11th, 2011 - 16:35
Because if that was the case, Alabama would just find people to count back in the recruiting class and still take 25 all while bringing their total to 97 scholarships ‘offered’
March 11th, 2011 - 16:52
Sorry Red, I don’t follow you.
March 10th, 2011 - 20:02
Sounds good, and I look forward to reading what you’ll post.
Unfortunately, in order to post this I had to scroll past the load of garbage that I fully expected to see from the lightweights who were frothing at the mouth in anticipation of you posting something – anything – so that they could unload on you, OSU and especially Jim Tressel, as if making false equivalences in any way mitigates the harm that the practice of oversigning by their supported schools does to recruited high school and college students. Good grief!
They, of course, should feel free to criticize Tressel and OSU according to any established facts that they can muster about that situation – but not here – because clearly, just as with all of the loads of other off-topic garbage that’s been routinely posted here for months (and to no avail) – it doesn’t belong here! Please don’t hesitate to remind the offenders of this important point.
Keep up the good work!
March 10th, 2011 - 23:10
So the fact that Josh has repeatedly held OSU, the B10, and Jim Tressell up as the beacon of ethical behavior ever since he started this site does not make the current events that show that none of them actually have any ethics relevant? It seems that every article he writes has the phrase “…compare that to Jim Tressell (the B10, OSU, Jim Delany, take your pick)”. This site has spend countless entries trying to prove to us all that these entities are examples to follow. That the SEC is low-life and should strive to be like the great and honorable B10 and its leader JT. It is Josh who made the ethics of JT and company relevant, so yes a discussion on this is warranted.
Also, keep in mind that Josh once posted an article whose only purpose was to ridicule and discredit one of the commentators. The guy kinda deserved it – but don’t pretend that this site has never waivered from oversigning when it serves the author’s agenda.
March 10th, 2011 - 23:50
That post is imbecilic. The citations that Josh made to Tressel and the Big 10 regarding the ethical treatment of players re: oversigningstill stand. The numbers haven’t changed. The effect of the policies and attitudes haven’t changed. In fact, the only the that’s changed is that lightweights such as yourself actually believe you found something to seize upon that weakens the case against oversigning – and so you strut and crow and kick up a lot of dust to draw attention – not realizing that you’re the silly birds getting covered in your own filth.
March 11th, 2011 - 07:42
Cut through your seemingly alway-present flowery insults, and I don’t disagree with your premise. Oversigning exists and recent events don’t change the fact that Alabama, FSU, USC, Ole Miss, Ohio State, etc all oversigned this year. The problem is that Josh has always used the high ethics of JT and the B10 as a shining example of what the rest of CFB and teh SEC in specific should strive for. To think that a story showing that these entities care more about winning football than anything else is quite relevant in my opinion. This is an argument that can no longer be made
BTW, have you ever responded to someone on this board without throwing insults around? You obviously have a high intellect and occasionally make some valad points, but it is sometimes hard to make out among your own strutting and crowing.
March 11th, 2011 - 16:45
I can’t think of a characterization of any post or poster that I’d change, as the volumes of posts here are adequate samples to make accurate judgments about how you think and what your motives are.
If what I’ve written is insulting to you or any others, that’s a personal issue for you – one that perhaps you’d overcome if you used your own intellect better in formulating the thoughts you share here.
As for civility, that works well when there’s ample respect involved. But when a number of you don’t respect the persuasion of numbers, facts and trends, the opinions and acts of governing bodies, the widely held and considered opinions of scrutinizing journalists, the need for ethical treatment of student-athletes, the primary (academic) missions of institutions of higher learning – and don’t even respect yourselves enough to even attempt to engage objectivity and intellectual honesty over repetitive sophomoric contrarianism, then I have no problem calling both you and your posts what you are.
No one’s required to suffer ongoing idiocy without comment.
If that’s what you need, then establish a fan club for yourself – something that’s not unlike the thing you and a handful of others here have going where you continually blow smoke in Nick Saban’s (et al) direction. I suspect a meeting will shortly convene in the space that follows this post.
March 11th, 2011 - 16:57
I’ll just take that as a “No”.
March 11th, 2011 - 07:48
Nice try.
March 10th, 2011 - 23:38
Not a quote by Josh, but I think maybe that this is the kind of thing that Catch 5 is talking about:
Although I must confess, I haven’t checked the WSJ to see if they’ve hopped on-board the Tressel bashing train yet. Of course, there may not be any room left on that train.