The JUCO Farm System in the SEC and Oversigning

The topic of oversigning with the intention of signing and placing recruits in JUCO schools in the southeast has been a heavily debated topic here at oversigning.com.  Numerous SEC coaches have publicly defended their practice of signing and placing kids they have oversigned into JUCO schools, including Auburn's former coach Tommy Tuberville, who claimed he oversigned every year as a head coach.  Huston Nutt was trying to setup his own little farm league in the JUCO system when he raped the signing process a few ago and signed 37 recruits, 12 of which he knew had no shot at qualifying.

Our position has been that coaches abuse this practice in order to hoard recruits and keep them away from rival schools.  As SportsByBrooks.com is now reporting regarding HBO's upcoming special on business and ethics in college sports, we see why SEC coaches, specifically Auburn's ex-coach Tommy  Tuberville, liked to oversign and place the non-qualifiers in JUCO. 

Kremer voiceover: “Raven Gray was a top (Auburn) recruit in 2007, he says people affiliated with Auburn would visit him at his junior college and press the flesh there too.

Kremer to Gray: “How much do you think you got?

Gray: “Twenty five-hundred to three thousand dollars. Loyalty is the key. This man give me money I’m going to be loyal to him and go to Auburn.”

Kremer voiceover: “And he did go to Auburn but got injured before he ever played a game.”


According to Raven Gray, people affiliated with Auburn would visit him and bring him money while he was in the JUCO farm system. 

Folks, the entire system is broken and the sport that we so dearly love is on the brink.  The writing is on the wall -- this is going to get worse before it gets better and unfortunately oversigning and the ancillary filth that comes with it is just the tip of the iceberg.

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  1. Now I’m starting to believe the SEC fans on this site. The OSU story better get up quickly. hoes beat cash any day.

    • I wouldn’t hold my breath

    • If Ohio State played with ineligible players then so did Auburn with Scam Newton. Scam and those players were found eligible by the NCAA so therefore they are.

      • FYI, I am not defending either school, just the way it goes with the NCAA

      • Not necessarily. Cam was ruled eligible based on the information available at the time. The “tat five” were ruled eligable for the Sugar Bowl and suspended for the first five games of next season based on the information available at the time. The difference in these two is that new information condeming OSU has surfaced – primarily that Tressell knew the whole season that they had committed violations that would result in their being ineligable. No new information has surfaced about Cam.

  2. What does pay for play have to do with sign and place? I’m not defending Auburn – if this is true they should get hammered by the NCAA – but I thought this site was strictly about oversigning. At least it was when Tressel’s newly-discovered ethics were the national topic.

    I don’t care either way, but you can’t post here that you aren’t going to discuss Tressel lying to investigators then turn around and post this. Make up your mind and be consistent.

    • This has to do with oversigning because many of the players that are placed in JUCO are those that were signed to an oversigned roster. Schools sign more than they have room for with the full intention of placing some kids in JUCOs that their boosters can funnel money to in order to keep them away from other schools.

      • The practice of putting a kid in JuCo isn’t bad nor is it the problem. Boosters paying a kid while he’s in JuCo to keep him in line to come to any school is wrong and I would guess the NCAA would have something to say about that.

        Josh, I can understand that you and others feel it’s an advantage to use JuCo as a “training” ground for you recruits… but there is nothing wrong with it, and honestly maybe more schools should look into it. Now, forcing or paying for a kid to stay in line with a previous commitment to a school is wrong and I would support any rules that would help regulate that WITHOUT killing the use of greyshirt and “sign and place”.

        Your view seems to be to be akin to not allowing anyone to drive on the interstates because some people speed…

        • You do realize that the Big 10 associate commissioner, Chad Hawley, said on ESPN that they have been conducting a study on the success rate of JUCO transfers in terms of getting a 4 year degree and thus far the finds are that these guys are not graduating at the same rate and are more prone not to make it through a 4 year degree. I have no problem with the JUCO route provided boosters aren’t funneling money to the recruit to keep him committed to a certain school and provided that these guys actually make it through a degree and are prepared for life after football. Do we really want more Cam Newtons and Nick Farleys? Neither of which finished a degree and only used Auburn as a spring board to get to the NFL, where, most likely, in 4-5 years they will be out of the league, broke, and looking to sell their stories to HBO. Is that the system we really want?

          • That is the recruit’s choice… if he doesn’t take advantage of the opportunities given to him, so be it. He will have to face the consequences of those actions at some point in his life.

            It’s not the NCAA’s place to “punish” a kid for not graduating. They are there to set standards that he’ll have to maintain. If he can’t do it, then he’ll have to find a different way to make a living in life.

            I would expect a much higher rate of non-graduation fromm JuCo as the athlete wasn’t able to qualify out of High School, so he’s starting out in a hole. How is it an advantage to any school to place a kid in JuCo and then take him onto your team to have him fail out in a Year? It isn’t, that’s why there have tuttors, required study hallls and reported attendence in class for Athletes. The school is investing in the Athelete and is doing whatever it can to help the kid make the grades withing the guidelines of the NCAA…. I would wager to say that ANY athlete going to JuCo and then 4 year has a better chance of graduating than if he wasn’t involved in a sport. I can tell you from my experience, you are watched like a hawk about grades and you are afforded a lot more resources than the “normal” student.

            Regardless of graduation rate, it isn’t a bad thing…

            • exactly this attitude is what makes you think oversigning is acceptable. “That is the recruits choice.” These are big intimidating football factories going after 17-18 year old kids and it is ultimately the kids choice, they need to be protected. Auburn was a good example of paying players according to the HBO special with the money handshake. Guess where Bowden is now, yep you got it, North Alabama. North Alabama is a good destination for many Alabama non-qualifiers and “bust” recruits. I wonder how much Alabama is paying Bowden to push the sign and place recruits Alabama’s way and “get rid” the castaways from the Alabama oversigned roster?

              • if they had a problem getting into college coming out of HS, it is not a surprise that even going to a JUCO, they arent graduating nearly as high either. It is not that hard to be eligible for college sports. very low level ACT/SAT and what, 2.5 gpa? They are barely taking core classes at a JUCO, to get eligible to get to a big school.

                As for North Alabama, U of A gets zero recruits from there. UNA isnt a JUCO, they are a full college in Division II. And they arent a destination for non-qualifiers from Bama as they arent a JUCO. Maybe if you knew more about what you talked about with regards to other schools, you wouldnt come off so ignorant.

                Oh, and Little Bowden…he was run out of Auburn for a couple of things, one of which was trying to stop players from constantly getting paid while he was there.

                • Just to add on to the fact checking, the only two scholarship players to transfer from Alabama to North Alabama under Saban that I can find are Brandon Fanney (a returning starter at Alabama) and Rod Woodson (in a dead heat for a starting safety position when he transferred). Neither one would be qualified as a “bust recruit”. I don’t know whether BetterRED is getting bad intel, or if he’s simply making stuff up and hoping that no one calls him on it.

              • I think you’re have the same thought process as those that believe Obama isn’t a US Citizen, Bush blew up the towers and the Government blew up the leveys in New Orleans and the boogie man is under the bed…

                Hey, if Alabama is paying players… nail ‘em. I have no problem with enforcing the rules that are in place on that. I don’t support ANY team doing that… but that doesn’t make sign and place a bad thing.

          • Wow. So Juco players that go to the NFL all end up broke in a few years? Even the ones taken in the top 15 of the draft? Just for clarification, what do you propose they do? Once they declare for the draft, the university has no say in their affairs. They are free men and can do whatever they want with their money, regardless of the counseling they were given while on the team. These are still 20 year olds, and anyone who has tried to mentor these kids knows that it is very difficult to get some principals through. Thinking that the instant wealth that comes with signing with an NFL team will continue forever is not just a fault of early departures that came over from JuCo.

      • That is weak. So Auburn is (reportedly) paying players, recruits, and JuCo players and you say it is because they are oversigned? This is a problem of blatently paying for play – something that is strictly prohibited at the highest degree. There is no connection between this activity and oversigning.

        Are you saying that if Auburn wasn’t oversigning that they also wouldn’t have been paying players? That certainly doesn’t seem to be the case with the OSU connection here. Taking recruits to a brothel is strictly against the rules as well but as we all know, OSU never oversigns. Perhaps Auburn was simply paying players to come to school with the promise that they would continue to pay if they played well – and OSU seemed to be doing the same with sexual favors.

        Oversigning is completely seperate and any attempt to connect the two is bogus – unless everything that occurs is a result of oversigning. Just imagine, “Michael Dyer strained his ACL today in spring workouts. If Auburn had not oversigned, he wouldn’t have had to work so hard to maintain the starting spot and wouldn’t have injured himself”.

      • except that no kid that is eligible is going to go to a JUCO. If a school is signing a player that they know wont be eligible, and send them to a JUCO to get their school in order, they can still go to a different school. they arent locked in to the school they originally committed to.

        • But they would feel more obligated to “be loyal to him and go to Auburn” if there was an Auburn booster around giving him cash.

          What if it played out like this:

          Auburn (or whoever) scouts kid, during recruiting process it becomes obvious that he won’t qualify, advises kid to go to JUCO and promises to keep in touch and if things work out the kid can transfer. Move on and offer scholarships to kids who will actually make it into school. A couple of years later, JUCO kid has turned things around and wants to play for Auburn for obvious reasons. Kid transfers, Auburn awards him a scholarship, everybody wins.

          Doesn’t that seem like the more reasonable and ethical use of JUCO? As opposed to signing a kid that isn’t going to qualify (and thus won’t get the scholarship anyway), then telling him where to go and creating a sense of obligation (even if there was no cash, which there probably was) to return to Auburn later, if Auburn still wants him?

          • There are already rules in place to stop the payment of players by boosters… enforce the rules that are on the books.

            BTW, your example IS what is going on… kids sign NLI’s BEFORE they are at qualification… NLI is in February, most kids don’t graduate HS before this date. What happens is they sign an NLI, but end up not qualifing… at that point the NLI becomes null and void and the kid is free to go any route he wants… Juco, workforce… whatever other options he may have. He’s not bound to any school.

            • Well the rules on the books don’t seem to be working, do they? Players are getting paid EVERYWHERE, and now it appears that they are getting paid even when they are not “bound to any school” as a way of binding them, at least psychologically, as Gray’s comments show.

              Do you really believe that a coach can’t tell which kids are going to be able to qualify by February? I understand that there may be some borderline kids who could fall on the wrong side of the line, but if the coach is attempting to recruit kids who will be successful in college academically (and shouldn’t they be?), those situations should be rare. With strict limits on oversigning, coaches would be forced to make better decisions since there will be fewer safety nets.

              • No. Players are not recruited fore their academic prowess. Trhey are given scholarships because rthe possess a physical talent that will benefit the school’s football team. This player must maintain a certain level o academic success to remain eligable, but the reason for their scholarship is purely athletic.

                …coaches would be forced to make better decisions since there will be fewer safety nets.

                And to hell with the ones who don’t look like they will qualify, right? Tough luck to them, eh? They should have known better when they were 14 years old and in a failing school system. Its not the college’s role to assist these riff raff into a system that will better their lives. No they made their deciscion long ago.,

                • What about kids in those failing systems who have no athletic talent? Is it the college’s role to help those kids too? How are they going to do that?

                  Of course athletes are recruited for their athletic ability, but their academic ability has to come into play, precisely because of the eligibility requirements. The scholarship is for an education, and if a kid hasn’t shown that education is even minimally important to him, then no, the college has no obligation to bend over backwards just because he’s a great athlete.

                  It’s not the university system’s fault that the NFL has no minor league. If kids could go from HS to the NFL minors, a large portion of the scandals (and poor graduation rates) that plague college football would vanish (not to mention solving most of the NFL’s issues). The downside is that college football would miss out on some top-notch talent. Maybe it would be worth it.

  3. Here’s the breakdown of each conference’s JuCo signees per team between 2007 and 2010:

    17.2 WAC
    15.0 Sun Belt
    14.8 CUSA
    13.8 Big 12
    11.6 Pac 10
    11.0 MWC
    8.9 Big East
    8.1 SEC
    6.7 MAC
    3.4 Big Ten
    1.9 ACC


    Yep, the JUCO system is just one big farm system for the SEC.

    Obviously, paying a JUCo player to come to your 4 year school is wrong, but Auburn – and tOSU – was allegedly also paying high school players too, so does that make high school a farm system too?

    • you can use logic and facts, it doesnt mesh well with the “bash the SEC” crowd.

    • And of course you have a break down of how many of those kids attended JUCO’s in the south, right? There might be a ton of kids going to JUCO’s out west, but we don’t know of a pattern where those kids that go to JUCO out west are being steered to colleges out west by boosters paying them cash while at the JUCO. We have that now with the latest admission from Auburn.

      • I don’t get your point…. paying a player is wrong, no matter how you look at it, but putting a kid in JuCo isn’t the problem nor is it wrong/bad.

      • A pattern? You do realize that one example doesn’t constitute a pattern don’t you? Let’s do an excercise to illustrate this point. I’ll provide you the first number in a sequence – or pattern – of numbers and you respond with the next number in the sequence. First number in the sequence: 1. What’s the second number?

        And of course you have a break down of how many of those kids attended JUCO’s in the south, right?

        I’m not sure why it really matters where they attended JUCO, but as I’ve pointed in the past, the northeast, midwest, southwest, and west coast all have their fair share of JUCOs.

        Here’s a list of JUCO football programs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_community_college_football_programs#NJCAA_football_programs

        Now if you’re talking about players signed, you can either look at the list that I provided above, or look at this list list of JUCO players signed paying attention to the map which shows where the players attended JUCO: http://rivals.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/football/recruiting/rankings/rank-jc50/2011/map;_ylt=AqopbcEuINnHk.OXk.WGZdNGPZB4

        • Also, Alabama signed 3 JuCo players this year. Two of them are from an Arizona school. Using Josh’s methods of pattern development we can then conclude that 66% of JuCo players are from the West, not the South as he postulates.

          • 5,
            They may have signed them from there, and that is fine. Did they place them there? doubt it, so it is legit. Were they originally signed with Alabama? Doubt it.

            • Not sure about Aaron Douglas, but Jessie Williams origionally signed with Hawaii. I guess their sign and place program needs to learn how to strong-arm those recruits to come back huh?

              Quinton Dial did origionally sign with Alabama. It seems to me that the problem people would have with S&P is when a school doesn’t offer the player when he does qualify. I’m not sure how often this occurs, but this is the only reason I would have any problem with it. This is not to say that the kid should go to the same school – or even that the school should be required to offer again. Things change during the 2 years it usually takes to qualify, and needs at certain positions change – but this is an area open to possible abuse and should be researched by recruits before they sign or take the advice of their school.

      • You don’t really know because this site appears to only research the SEC and not the other conferences.

    • Thanks for this Vesper. Many coaches use Juco kids to fill voids after normal attrition. In the case of the mid major schools, they are not able to get elite athletic talent so the search the Juco ranks for the talent. TEAMS who dont oversign will typically have a higher rate of Juco players from filling those voids in attrition.

      Where is the stat for “Sign and place” Juco recruits. Juco is not the problem! The problem is signing a kid out of highschool when you already know he is not going to qualify in order to hoard and place him in a Juco of your choice. That is the problem.

      • You keep saying hoarding and putting them in the Juco of your choice… It isn’t the schools decision, it’s the kids decision where he goes. He’s not bound to anything. If the kid is good enough, there are plenty of schools recruting him out of Juco and ALL are telling him what his options are. Does the original school have the inside track… sure. But so does the Home state school have an advantage in recruiting when an out of state school trys to poach a recruit.

        • You are completely correct, this is why the oversigning school recruits them and gains there trust. They use this to place them in ‘friend-I will take care of you JuCo” schools. He is not bound to anything at all but a loyalty to repay the great treatment he received from the JuCo who treated him so well haha. It just happens to be, he signed with Alabama, LSU or Auburn originally and the JuCo coach suggest he attends whatever university. Yeah that is fair when a Div I coach who gained your trust suggest this, then the JuCo coach who gained your trust, suggest go back to those schools….as a 17-18 year old…trust is alot, especially when it is like your (fake) father.

          • and I see nothing wrong with this. Recruiting is all about building trust. Coaches do it throughout the year with each and every recruit. HS coaches/Schools tend to be “factories” fior certain colleges too…

            If you want to level the playing field… kill all school/coach contact with any recruit. Make the recruits send in applications to the schools of their choice and get accepted through normal acedemic proceedures and then hold open tryouts for the team after enrollment…. I wouldn’t support it, but that somewhat what you are asking for and it would make it much more interesting for sure ;)

          • It just happens to be, he signed with Alabama, LSU or Auburn originally and the JuCo coach suggest he attends whatever university. Yeah that is fair when a Div I coach who gained your trust suggest this, then the JuCo coach who gained your trust, suggest go back to those schools….as a 17-18 year old…trust is alot, especially when it is like your (fake) father

            Are you talking about Ricky Henry and Nebraska?

  4. Some people go to junior colleges because they need to get their grades up a little. Some people go to JUCOs because they need a little more schooling to get their shot. Naturally, you care more about football than that because you are just a staggering jackass.

  5. You have no clue how it works, man. You are just so uninformed. You have a good point somewhere about oversigning but you act like you’re so morally superior to us, but you don’t understand that the reason a kid goes to JUCO is simply because he needs more education. Take Dhaquille Williams for example. His parents sent him to a high school that was not accredited for two years. He is not ready for college. He’s going to go to a JUCO in Mississippi for a year or two, until he can complete the course requirements to attend LSU.

    You are doing those kids a disservice if you send them straight to college, unprepared. That’s where Junior College schools come in. What do you want them to do? Never go to college? Go to college but NO FOOTBALL! Somewhere you went from genuine concern for student-athletes being taken advantage of via oversigning to just being uppity.

    • Two points:

      Signing players who can’t be admitted, placing them in a friendly JUCO and then providing incentives to return to the school that originally signed the player to return — is part of the oversigning strategy. On this board a month or two ago, some of the posters here were trying to argue that “Sign and Place” provided no advantage for the university that originally signed the player. I know it seems ludicrous, but the argument was that a Tommy Tuberville was so stupid and ill-informed about his profession that he was wasting his time following a strategy that would provide no benefits to the Auburn program (… “and that’s why he got fired!!!”). The same group still posts on this board.

      Second, the main argument from several posters, including myself, against “Sign and Place” is that when it is viewed as a mainstream strategy (as it is in the South — and other places), it does not encourage poorer performing school districts to elevate standards for their athletes since the “JUCO” route is always available. Yet combining JUCO and transfer to a 4-year School increases the probability of never receiving a degree from a four year university. Instead of increasing the pressure on schools, parents and players to raise their standard of academic preparedness, it is a safety valve that leaves those who use it a lower probability of ultimate success — obtaining a 4-year degree. The percentage of academic casualties in the first wave, the “Sign and Place” wave is never considered or calculated, because the association with the 4-year school allows plausible deniability without any responsibility to improve the situation.

    • There is no problem with going to JUCO. The problem is with schools signing way more kids than they have room for, placing them in friendly JUCO schools, and then having boosters funnel them money to keep them interested in their school and away from other schools. If you can’t see the issue with that then you’re a hopeless case.

      • Again, the only thing wrong is the money part, which is not permitted by NCAA anyway. Any school doing this should be punished by NCAA. The first two aspects I have no issues with and to be honest, I can’t even begin to see why you or anyone else can…

        Oh yes, there is the arguement that it doesn’t provide incentive for HS football payers to do better in HS. I cal BS on that. The HS need to improve standards REGARDLESS of JuCo Sign and Place. That is a different issue all together and needs to be address on the local levels and not by the NCAA.

        A school accepting an NLI and then placing a non-qualifier into a friendly school is still the RECRUITS choice. The school can only suggest, the parents and the recruit have to place. Even then, a top notch player in JuCo that makes the grades is going to be get recruited by Many schools, not just the one that placed him. He has options and will be told MANY MANY times from all the other schools what his options are. Does the original school have the inside track, sure… but so does the Home town school when recruiting instate… Alabama trying to pull a RB from Georgia who is a huge UGA fan all his life is going to be hard. Is that High School considered a “placement” school for UGA?

        • What is “wrong” depends on how you defined “wrong” — against what framework. The NCAA cannot change HS education in general but they can influence the education of HS students who aspire to receive an athletic scholarship to a Div 1 school. The “Core 16″ has an effect. Next target should be the JUCO route which any analysis will show leads to a lower graduation rate at a 4-yr school.

          • They already do that… they have standards set that need to be made to get accepted into the NCAA. Are you suggesting that if a kid can’t make these requirements, his chance to play NCAA football in Division 1 is over? I for one would be very much against that…

            You’re argument really makes no sense… JuCo’s shouldn’t be allowed to transfer to 4 year schools because some of them end up failing out… What logic is behind that?

            • Your not You’re… sorry for my poor use of grammar.

              • and it continues after Rich and Josh just made it clear as can be but you guys and girls will continue to argue. I guess it must just be Josh pulling this out of his ass, simply as an idea. He doesnt have multiple athletic directors supporting the anit-oversigning cause. I guess there are way more athletic directors of oversigning teams on this board disputing the ethics of oversigning. WOW

                • What are you trying to reply too?

                  BTW, just because someone has support… doesn’t make their idea correct. There is plenty of support on both sides of the issue.

                  • where is the support for oversigning? Please show me the website, the athletic directors in favor and people speaking out who support it. Please

                    • My guess would be every school that does oversign “supports” it…

                      Hitler had a lot of support from the people… He didn’t turn out so well did he?

                    • Point being, Support isn’t a good indicator of correctness…

                    • Godwin’s Law.

                    • I have to admit…I had to look that one up. That’s pretty funny, but allow me one point of clarification. The definition of Godwin’s Law that I read said that people would inevitably call the other side Nazi’s or compare their beliefs with Hitler’s. That is not quite accurate with what Bathel did. He was not trying to equate people who don’t like oversigning with Hitler, just that support in general doesn’t mean that view is correct. This is quite a valad point.

                    • yes, vesper… i don’t think there is anything “evil” about those that are “anti-oversigning”, it’s just a different opinion than the one I have. The point was/is that Hitler had a lot of support and he didn’t turn out to be that good… and hence, having support isn’t an indication of correctness.

                    • Sorry, I said vesper… meant Catch5

                    • Sorry! Actually if you read back in history, the people of Germany didnt support Hitler in the war effort or what he was doing, they were in support of what he had done up until that point for the country (good things). Many people of Germany didnt actually know about the concentration camps (oversigning) and with the war. Back in the day there was not information source such as the internet and this is why Hitler wont happen ever again. When I say concentration camps grouped with oversigning is because the negative of good. Hitler moved Germany along technologically far beyond any other country but there were evils that went along with that. Back in 1939 approx. was the Natzi’s supporting Hitler and NOT the German country. Remember Hitler changed the laws so everyone had to express allegiance to him, NOT the country of Germany.

                    • Well, I was wrong…. Mike Sanders was correct, we just needed to wait until BetterRED posted… Godwin’s Law.

                      BTW, BetterRED… regardless of who opposed Hitler, there were many many people that supported him and AGAIN proves my point that support ISN’T a good indicator of correctness… but I guess you just glazed over the point I was making and went off on your own tangent…

      • Johsua,

        You are making a connection between an athletic program and its boosters that has not been even remotely proven or vetted. There is zero evidence that Auburn’s football program had anything to do with Raven Grey getting payments (ignoring the obvious that there is no proof it ever happened in the first place). You are welcome to make all the assumptions you want. I would assume that if tOSU is accused of making “money handshakes” to players then that is an oversigning issue as well, in that it directly negates tOSU’s need to oversign because it has a distinct advantage over its cleaner competitors, therefore causing them to try and find another competitive advantage (oversigning).

        If you want to remain a respectable website I would avoid statements like that. If you want to be the next SBB then go right ahead. Maybe you can add a girl with DDD Breasts to the header while you’re at it (tOSU should be able to scrape up some candidates for you).

  6. One more off topic theory for you. SEC fan is insane. You know this. You write a blog about oversigning. This insanity has completely overridden your ability to argue logically. Nobody can talk to Bama fans this long and stay sane and nobody knows this more than LSU fans (we even out-insane Bama). I digress. Troll hard, bro. Troll hard.

  7. Wow, great timing Josh.

    The article about tonight’s HBO “Real Sports” piece hits just as you are publishing this gem. Yes, the JUCO “farm system” is like indentured servitude. What shall we call the $1000 handshake and coeds for sex program that they are using at OSU?

    Good gosh. Are you SERIOUSLY trying to keep this bashing up in the face of all that is going on at your program, you hypocrite?

    • Money trading hands or SEX bennies are different issues than oversigning and are already not allowed by NCAA rule… I don’t even know why they are part of this blog. Nither OSU nor Abuurn’s wrong doings should go unpunished, but there is already rules in place to enforce these things.

      • The reason these issues are a part of this blog is that the author has been holding out Ohio State and the Big Ten as paragons of virtue as it relates to dealing with recruits. Why is this difficult to understand? It is the height of hypocrisy. This is the classic of pointing out the splinter in someone else’s eye when you have a plank in your own.

        I know it would be nice if you could simply say “yeah, I know Ohio State has done a ton of bad things, and it all looks very bad, but let’s stay focused on all the bad things we have been pointing ouit about other schools”, but that’s absurd.

        • HeadScratcher… I understand all that… I was just point out that it should be part of the blog… basically, agreeing with you in a nicer tone.

          • No sweat. I guess I am just used to the apologists using every imaginable form of subterfuge to try and keep the guns pointed at oversigning when the worst corruption in D-1 is going on right in theit own offices. All these writers that have been getting in touch with Josh must surely have enough sense to see that the guy is radioactive right now. And it’s unlikley he will regain his “standing” any time soon, no matter how many more pokes he tries to take. He’s tainted.

            • Just to be clear… as an Alabama fan, I wouldn’t be surprised to see wrong doings by Bama either in regards to recruiting. I am not for any of that going on, but it’s a different issue than oversigning regardless of it being Auburn or Ohio State being show in a bad light right now or even if Alabama was/is dragged into the HBO thing too.

    • Wasn’t it you that made snide comments about Duron Carter and his academic problems while he was at tOSU? Pretty sure it was. So, now that it looks like he might play for ‘Bama, what say you?

  8. I am against oversigning and a big fan of Ohio State and that being said, I wouldn’t have thrown a pebble at the SEC using this source as a point of ammunition, especially due to the fact that they make accusations toward Ohio State as well. I am not sure the topic really suits the purpose of this site and does give the appearance of an agenda. Don’t get me wrong I still dislike the smugness and exclamations of superiority from the SEC fans but this particular topic is not on course. My opinion only. The numbers posted by Vesper earlier, if accurate, strengthen that opinion. I don’t have time to do the research myself.

    • The smugness comes from the recent past in regards to BCS championships…. These things go in waves… the SEC is top dog now, but in 10 years it will be some other conferene and then that smugness will be associated with that conference. Every conference has its smugness, it just doesn’t get the spotlight until there is a lot of success…

      • Scam Newton

        • What is your point?

          BTW, it’s $Cam Newton….

          • same point. Its only a matter of time until the NCAA digs what they need to find Auburn guilty and strips them of the title BUT now the hot water Oregon is in….who would claim the title?

            • I don’ think the NCAA has enough time or power to find or do anything to Auburn…. As much as I would love to see them get nailed for the $Cam Gate, I don’t see anything coming of it…. nor do I see them being stripped of a NC. This is a totally different issue than oversigning, though…. don’t get me started on the how poor the NCAA is run! Talk about needing an overhaul…

            • The NCAA cannot strip a BCS title from anyone. Only the BCS can do that. They can vacate the win, but just as in the case of USC, it is still in the BCS record books that they are the BCS champ. When a win is vacated, the win is not then taken by the team that lost. They still lose. There is just no winner for that year.

  9. Has anyone discussed the possibility that Tressel is reluctant to discipline his players and has to violate NCAA rules because he DOESN’T oversign? The lack of oversigning leaves his roster thin at many positions and in order to be competitive, he is forced to look the other way in order to keep top players on the field. See, oversigning is GOOD because team that oversign are less likely to keep criminals on the roster and violate NCAA bylaws. Hooray for oversigning!

    This argument is no more ridiculous than tying in JUCO pay-for-play to oversigning. This site gets more comical every day. I think Josh is strictly going for shock value these days to increase his page hits.

    Good work Josh.

  10. If you believe something strongly enough, then everything starts to become evidence for your convictions. That’s how illegal practices at Michigan, irresponsible workouts at Iowa, and a coach breaking NCAA Rule #1 can become “off-topic aberrations.”

    Example: Iowa should be signing 17 players a year, because they redshirt everyone (85/5 = 17). However, they average 23 players a year according the numbers here, and their fan site suggests the program always signs a few more after signing day that never make the February stats we see on Scout or Rivals. That’s 8 or 9 players a year more than they need. And if you start comparing the actual rosters year to year, then it quickly becomes evident that, on average, 4 out of 10 players that Iowa signs never see graduation day in Iowa City.

    So – they bring in more kids than they need. A huge percentage wash out. And this is the model we want for the rest of college football, because they currently sit on the bottom of the Oversigning Cup list?

    Somehow, we’re supposed to believe that coaches in Big 10 schools will break clear NCAA rules to gain a competitive advantage, but they would never, ever run kids off – because that would violate some enlightened Code of Honor among Research Facilities That Happen to Field a Football Team.

    The competitive pressures for the ADs and coaches have become too intense. You can’t put that genie back in the bottle. I agree that the S-As need protection, but I see little evidence that the Big 10 Rule provides much at all.

    Why not guarantee kids 4 years in the classroom even if they get cut – without affecting the 85 cap? They just move into an academic scholarship. Let kids who get cut transfer without any restrictions if they want. That puts the kids in complete control of their situation. Finally, all kids signed still count towards APR.

    That’s a student-focused solution that admits coaches on every campus feel the pressure to win big and that student-athletes are the ones getting squeezed.

    • Very well stated, ITM. And isn’t it odd that the author of the site has managed to find time to comment on the posters’ responses that he agrees with, or that support his position, but in the past couple of months, the only non-supportive posts that he has bothered to comment on were ones that were continuing to pester him about the way he “counts” LOIs (clearly a sore subject). Josh’s problem is that he is desperate to maintain some level of relevancy, but the shit storm going on in Columbus is wreaking havoc on that effort. With the revelation that OSU has been paying recruits and entertaining them with sleazy coeds that will come out on tonight’s HBO special, the whole notion that Ohio State or any other top tier program is in another moral league from the rest of D-1 is a bunch of hooey. May as well pull up the tent stakes on this sham of a site.

      • Point taken, but even though I don’t agree with Josh and how he wants to handle “oversigning”… I do agree there are issues that need to be address with oversigning. It may pain me to say it, but Josh’s site has relevance if only to start the decusions… the reality is that no post on this site will “change” how (if any) rules will be made… I just hope smarter people than me actually do something “correct” instead of knee jerk (which seems to be the standard NCAA MO)…

        Now, I’m off to wash my mouth out…

      • Yep, that whole bit from Ramogi Huma regarding how this site played a role in legislation being proposed in Connecticut and thanks us for our efforts just makes this seem like a big waste of time.

    • Well said, but don’t like the transfer without restrictions. It will promote a new level of recruitment by coaches trying to steal players.

      • Having seen 3 UNC basketball players who were playing (but not starting) end up at UCLA in the past few months, I’m sympathetic to the dangers of tampering. I’m not accusing UCLA of anything. The kids see themselves as starters, and I don’t blame them for that.

        Those 3 players likely were the difference between the Elite Eight and a possible national championship, and they left anyway to find a better personal situation. So I agree with you in principle. It’s a tough balance to strike.

        • basketball is different than football. Street agents probably got an additional commission for getting these kids to transfer. At least it’s different today. With Badger Sports and all the other camps for football players, it will be hard to tell the difference in 5 years unless something is done.

      • Then you ban the coaches. You don’t punish the kids….that is just idiotic to place restrictions on kids, it doesn’t happen anywhere else on campus and it doesn’t belong. I predict that the transfer restrictions will collapse one day because they are targeted towards athletes in revenue generating sports…

        • Why is the kid always punished for the action but the coach/agent is rarely punished. The punishment needs to start with these agents and coaches. The agents risk very little and get ton of reward. Not right.

    • Or, this site deals with oversigning, not the things you list.

  11. Congratulations to Indian Cricket team on todays Semi Finals. India Beat Pakistan by 29 runs – March 30 , 2011 . ICC World Cup.

  12. Yeah, I generally appreciate Josh’s work, but I’m afraid the editorial slant here is a tad off the mark on this one. The connection he draws between oversigning and PFP seems fairly tenuous. I can only assume some of his ideas ended up coming out a tad undercooked in his rush to get ahead out ahead of this huge story that is, no doubt, going to be fueling debate and site hits around the net for the next few days.

    I think there absolutely IS a connection between oversigning and PFP, I’m just not sure it’s the one this article makes, or at least insinuates. The line at the end that includes “…oversigning and the ancillary filth that comes with it…” (used in a piece where the main feature is an allegation of PFP) suggests to the mind of the reader that oversigning is the root cause of this particular evil, that perhaps oversigning with intent to sign-and-place necessitates PFP. And I just find that kind of shaky.

    In fact, I’d suggest it’s the other way around. It’s the ability of these nefarious boosters to operate PFP schemes with relative impunity that makes oversigning with intent to sign-and-place such an attractive option to certain teams that are willing to put a kid “on the payroll,” so to speak, for a few years.

    In other words, PFP begets sign-and-place, not the other way around, which I think is what most people are getting out of this article. It’s a subtle difference, I know, but a key one. Is there any more proof to to support it than the one Josh makes (feel free to correct me if I’m taking this the wrong way, Josh)? Not really. But it does seem to hold up to critical analysis a little better.

    Do teams (or representatives of teams) pay previously signed JUCO kids to secure their services? Absolutely. But do they not also pay high school kids to secure their services, as well? Of course. And do they not also pay prep school kids to secure their services? Yep. And what of JUCO kids they have no previous connections with? Oh, they pay them, too. These guys would pay a kid pushing buggies at Wal-Mart if he ran a 4.4 (do they even push buggies there anymore?)

    All of that adds up to a picture that shows PFP as a far more expansive problem that exists independently of oversigning, and sign-and-place specifically. If you completely eliminated oversigning with intent to sign-and-place, would it even put a dent in PFP? Unlikely. But if you eliminated PFP, would that put a big dent in sign-and-place strategies? Well, that’s something to think about, and maybe what this article could have been about.

    Anyway, just food for thought…

    • Walmart Buggy Pushing Tangent: They assigned that one to their greeters, who tend to be older, which got them accused of discrimination. Then a memo surfaced in which some VP was hoping the exercise would improve the health of said buggy pushers enough to lower their health care costs.

      Proving that in America, even Buggy Pushing can become controversial.

      I agree with you – P4P’s the cause, not the symptom. I shudder to think what the NC SBI is finding while sifting through Blake’s financial records. It’s going to be bad.

  13. Has anyone ever read a list of those players who attended a JUCO and then went on to play major college footbal. If you haven’t, you’d be in for a surprise, as the list included Mike Rozier, Roger Staubach, and OJ Simpson.
    Are those who rail against the JUCO system suggesting that these players should have been banned from major college football?

    • Didn’t OJ kill someone… maybe they’d still be alive had he not been allowed to transfer to a 4 year school… just saying ;)

      • youre missing the point. Its the oversigning and place of JuCo players in a farm friendly college, NOT JuCo itself. wow

        • Is that any different than a farm friendly Highschool?

          A kid wants to play for Bama, he doesn’t qualify… he ask what he needs to do to get to Bama… The Bama coach looks at him and says… sorry kid I can’t tell you that information you’re going to have to figure that out by yourself. Give me a break.

          The reality is that if a kid is good, it doesn’t matter what JuCo he goes to… there will be plenty of coaching recruiting him out of Juco and telling him what his options are. The decision on what Juco the kid goes to is HIS decision, even if he’s advised by the original recruiting school… the decision on where he transfer to out of Juco is HIS.

          The anti sign and place crowd seems more like sour grapes to me… No one on this site or anyhwhere else has made any rational/logical argument against it. You are free to believe what you want, but I can pretty much promise you that sign and place isn’t going anywhere…

          • Very few kids come out of hs and say “I want to play for Bama, and only Bama” if you think that, your arrogance is getting in the way bro.

            I am not saying there are NOT any kids who will do that. There is NO way you can guarantee a percentage. NEWS FLASH! Alabama, Auburn or even Nebraska are not the shining light to these recruits. It goes down to the recruit buying and and wanted to play for a university. Alabama oversigning and placing JuCo recruits is a way to get what they want, take recruits from other schools and have a favorable result when they come out of JuCo. Not to mention, the Alabama coaching staff has another few years to evaluate the athlete on the field and in the classroom (something they should have done in the first place but didnt). JuCo is not the animal here. Placing kids as to your liking is! (you know Alabama does it so dont even try and dispute)…. a couple thousand dollar handshakes later and they (re-recruit the kid)

            • you would be surprised how many kids do say that Red. Now, most of them are FROM Alabama, or a neighboring state, but many do, as they grew up with parents and Bama fans, etc. Just like many kids grow up from Nebraska only wanting to be a Husker.

            • 1st off, that’s not what I said… I said they wanted to play for Bama and were/are willing to wait or go to JuCo first to do it…. now if Bama isn’t offering them a scholarship at all, I don’t think they’d turn down an offer to MSU to play, maybe some die hard kids… but not the norm.

              The question then becomes, is it wrong that Bama can offer them a greyshirt or JUCO route? I could see where a MSU fan may say, yes… as the kid woulda gone to MSU had Bama not been able to offer this route… but in my view, I don’t see where the kid is harmed and is actually help… he get’s to go to the school of HIS choosing… his first coice, not his second choice. I don’t see anything wrong with this.

            • [blockquote]JuCo is not the animal here. Placing kids as to your liking is! (you know Alabama does it so dont even try and dispute)…. a couple thousand dollar handshakes later and they (re-recruit the kid)[/blockquote]Sure Alabama is going to suggest what JuCo to go to and if I was the recruit that wanted to go to Bama I would follow that lead… nothing wrong with that.

              Paying a player with money handshakes or sexual favors… bad, and should be punished. If Bama is doing it, nail them. There are already rules in place to do that. I am 100% for enforcing those rules.

              Listen, I understand your point… it’s just a poor point. It’s Sour Grapes… I don’t think Alabama even recruits many JuCo’s and I don’t think they often sign and place, so I don’t really have a dog in the hunt… but I still don’t see anything wrong with teams that do. It’s no different than building relationships with HS coaches or HS players and getting the recruits trust during normal recruiting periods…

              • I don’t think Alabama even recruits many JuCo’s and I don’t think they often sign and place

                You are correct. Alabama averages 1 or 2 signees a year who don’t qualify and they typically have been borderline academically but just didn’t quite make it. We’re all aware of the Alfy Hill case last year. There are many, many other schools who would be considered worse “offenders” of sign and place, yet BetterRED focuses on Alabama because his Alabama=bad perception in growing into an obsession. He is turning into Texas_Dawg as he increasingly makes accusations based on insufficient or fabricated information.

                For the record, from 2007-2010 Nebraska signed 14 JUCO players while Alabama signed 5. 14 is a lot of JUCO signees. It’s quite possible that none of those 14 signed with Nebraska coming out of high school, but it’s also possible that, as a frequent recruiter of JUCO prospects, Nebraska has built very strong relationships with several of the more prominent JUCO coaching staffs. But I’m sure that doesn’t give Nebraska the inside track in recruiting highly sought after JUCO recruits like their curren All-American LB Lavonte David. Nope. Nebraska=good, Alabama=bad and nothing can change that.

                • Ricky Henry signed with Nebraska coming out of high school in Omaha, NE but failed to qualify.

                  Bill Callahan’s staff wanted to send him to a California junior college. Henry’s friends and family thought North Dakota State College of Science might be a little more his style”


                  Sounds like an attempt at sign and place to me. At any rate he went to JUCO in North Dakota where his coach had this to say about his return to Nebraska after JUCO:

                  “He’s coming. He’s there. I spoke to Dennis [Nebraska Offensive Line coach] and everything,” Shafer said. “Dennis said, ‘We always thought that Ricky was a Cornhusker’”

                  “Ricky and I have been talking a lot the last week, and I said, ‘I think you belong back home,’ and he said, ‘Yeah, I do,’ ” Shafer said.

                  “Ricky is a Cornhusker. There is no doubt about it.”


                  Is it any surprise that Henry signed with Nebraska coming out of JUCO since his JUCO coach was in communication with Nebraska coaches and was obviously pushing him to return to Nebraska? Sure sounds like Nebraska had the inside track to me.

    • I think Roger Stauback graduated from the Naval Academy!

  14. Bathel: you are correst.
    Every conference has its day in the sun; for now, the SEC is considered the best conference in college football. This will change, inevitably – and SEC fans know this. We know it will change because we know how competitive our conference is. Once FL was at the top of the SEC, but not now. Once AL and LSU were kings of the hill, but Auburn shoved them off the top
    However, as I read some of these posts, I sense a resentment on the part of Big Ten fans; not all, perhaps, but some have an overinflated view of their conference. They consider The Big Ten as the center of the college football world and resent the emergence of any competitor.
    Well, I got news for all you Big Ten folks and especially those from OSU. The college football world does revolve around you. We grant you no special privileges. You do not – nor will you ever – be allowed to set the ethical standards for college football recruiting, nor does anyone have to comply with your self-imposed rules.
    You may not like this fact, but to avoid a serious emotional disorder. I suggest you get used to it.
    If you don’t like it, tough.

    • “Well, I got news for all you Big Ten folks and especially those from OSU. The college football world does revolve around you. We grant you no special privileges. You do not – nor will you ever – be allowed to set the ethical standards for college football recruiting, nor does anyone have to comply with your self-imposed rules.
      You may not like this fact, but to avoid a serious emotional disorder. I suggest you get used to it.
      If you don’t like it, tough.”

      Maybe. We will see. It will be a very interesting struggle that pits the academic prowess of the Big Ten schools against the football achievements of the SEC. Without naming the Big Ten, you can bet that every President of a SEC school — except Vandy and Florida — hereafter referred to as the “Little Ten” aspires to make their school more like a Big Ten school. I am too lazy to google to verify but I bet that if you exclude the top two from each conference, the remaining ten of the Big Ten generate 3x more Research dollars than the Little Ten and generate 2x the endowment. When a school is facing de-accreditation (Auburn) and you have Ole Miss, Ark and MSU as your reps, your conference is in little position to lead in the world of higher education. And before you bring up athletic revenue and CBS contracts vs the BTN — it does not matter since in the big picture, sponsored research dwarfs all of this. — last year Indiana University, with its poor athletics generated 600mm in sponsored research at a 50% profit margin — making it more profitable than the SEC West, combined.

    • “You do not – nor will you ever – be allowed to set the ethical standards for college football recruiting, nor does anyone have to comply with your self-imposed rules.”

      Fair enough, but then again it seems like more and more people are becoming outspoken on the subject and are siding on the side that the Big Ten generally (though admittedly not always) takes.

      If we acknowledge not everyone has to go our way will you acknowledge you’re way may very well be unethical and counterproductive to the original mission of the “student athlete”?

      • I hope you watched the HBO special tonight and watched that panel scoff at the mere mention of the oxymoron “student athlete”. That was an extremely important piece. A full hour devoted to problems in the “amateurism” joke that is college athletics. That piece will resonate a whole lot more than this subject ever will. And imagine this–a whole hour to get a mention in over oversigning…did they do it? NO.

        • Where my Athletic side of me agrees with what they say…. my Fan side says they should not be paid. It’s a hard issue, but I’d hate to see college sports turn into paying players and the school with the most $$ outclasses the rest.

          One of the things I like best about College Football is the mis-matches. No school has 22 players on the team that are NFL class, not even close. That always leads to upsets and coaching schemes that take advanatage of those mismatches. It’s what makes college football exciting to me… and NFL football so much a waste of time to watch.

          I understand what they are saying, but I think I fall in line with what Rich Rod was saying… school and coaches need to do a better job of educating the reason why these kids are in college. A very small % well make the NFL and the $$, but it seems that the majority of them feel they are going to be the lucky ones and don’t need their education. I like the idea of giving a living wage also… tuition, books, food and board… then add in a cost of living wage so they have some money to “live” the college life a bit.

          I’m sure there are TONS of ideas on how to do all this, so I’m very open to other views…

          • I think the players should be paid, but tie it to graduation. Like they said, everyone in the system except the players (coaches, schools, AD’s, presidents, referees) gets paid. The people tune in to watch the players on the field, and buy their merchandise with the numbers on them, but the players don’t see a cent. I cant see why you couldn’t pull off some type of number, and set it aside and do a vesting like companies do with 401K. stay and graduate, get it for the number of years you were there.

            • Yeah, but do you just pay the players in the major revenue sports? What about the wrestlers and women’s lacrosse players? And how do you determine how much Jake Locker gets vs. the backup tight end? If Locker is getting too much, do you run the risk that there is a player strike? I think this is a huge hornet’s nest.

              • if it were up to me, you take the sports that actually generate a profit. I wouldnt pay the wrestlers, if their program isnt making a profit. Their benefit is the scholarship, room and board + paid education. As for the players on the team, you make it the same across the board. yes, someone could coast as a 3rd stringer and make some money when graduating, but that would be the cost of everyone else making the money.

                on a side note, i also applaud and agree with Ed Obannions quest to make the NCAA pay up for using his and other people likenesses and making money off them. I hope he wins his lawsuit.

                • Yes, I agree… any type of “release” should only be bound to the years the player is at that school… and become null and void the moment he leaves.

    • I could give an Eff less if the SEC has won National Championship games because none of them have been against my team. My team hasnt been on top for a long time and its a good climb back to the top so it isnt that for me AT ALL.

  15. Ok, I’m not seeing why folks can’t see the connection…one of the most standard excuses of oversigning I’ve seen is the “but if too many kids get cut, word will get out and then schools won’t be able to do it anymore”, thus its not really a problem since its only a temporary situation (IMO an incorrect argument, but that’s another discussion).

    But if there is rampant paying by boosters at the JUCO level you create a self-sustaining cycle where a school can oversign forever since now even if a player gets cut “he’ll be taken care of” (a direct quote of how many coaches that oversign?). Thus, oversigning can lead to JUCO packing which leads to boosters having easy (and much less supervised) access to collegiate players. What’s more, the institution eventually benefiting from this activity has complete plausible deniability since the infraction occurred at a completely independent institutions (“Hey, we don’t know why Cam signed, we’re just glad he did.”).

    Now I’m not a huge fan of all the SEC bashing that sometimes goes on here (Georgia, Florida, Vande, and a few others have it right, IMO), but I as a logically thinking person can’t help but see a connection. Is it “one-for-one”…no. But I certainly see it as strongly linked to the culture of profit, exploitation, and the generally un-academic minded philosophy I see too much of in the more popular college athletics.

    PS – As a BigTen guy (PSU, duh) I can only say no sh!t sherlock to tOSU and hopefully they’ll be crucified as much as any other institution. Tressel supposedly had a history at Youngstown State and I’m not overly surprised by this (though admittedly disappointed). In the end, the fact that tOSU did this in no way detracts from the site or the post…again, I see it all as “linked to the culture of profit, exploitation, and the generally un-academic minded philosophy I see too much of in the more popular college athletics” (sorry to quote myself :D ).

    • It won’t matter what rules you put in place… if a coach is unethical as is suggested here, they will find a way to scheme the system. The only real way, that I see, to solve the problem is to put more power and information into the hands of those making the decisions (the recruits and the parents)… at least as it relates to oversigning. The paying of players is already illegal, the issue there is that the NCAA has no real investigation powers. There isn’t much they can do to STOP it. As long as the NCAA looks the other way or just slaps the wrist of a school that does it… it won’t go anywhere. As much as it pains me… the NCAA might have got it more right than wrong when SMU got the death penalty…. I think it’s a risk reward issue with the pay for play stuff… the rewards are too great for the litte risk that is involved. Just My 2 cents, keep the change.

      • BINGO PSUguy!

      • Dude, I disagree with your “it doesn’t matter what rules you put in place” statement, but the rest is spot on. Fact is if you take tOSU and say…”no more TV appearances, no more Bowl Games, 35 total scholarships, and oh by the way you have the next decade to think about it” people will be scared (just as they were with SMU).

        If you immediately do it to Auburn, Alabama, Texas…then hit whoever may break the rules (obviously only those deserving). The (bad) system will crash.

        As you said, people think the worst that can happen is not that bad. So, start going scorched earth. Force those breaking the rules to eat dirt. I don’t care if friggin Harvard or Navy wins the NC…so long as its legit.

        • I never said I disagree with you.

        • You shut down one loophole, they will find another… that is what I mean by it doesn’t matter what rules you put in place… if a coach is unethical, he will continue to be unethical…

          As for the Scorched Earth… not going to happen… because the NCAA is made up of the schools themselves. It’s a self policed orginization. It’s not an outside third party… They are sucking on the same $$$ tit! My views on the NCAA are off-topic to oversigning…. but it doesn’t take long to know how stupid the NCAA is and now pathetic they are. If you’ve ever had to deal with NCAA complience, you’d be left wondering who comes up with some of the rules they have. To be honest, there is no way for any school to be 100% in complience… it’s impossable. THe NCAA itself is broken, but that’s a different blog unto itself…

    • 2001? Just getting internet at your house?

    • yeah funny. Brian do you (or whatever her name is because it doesnt matter) have anything to say. Osborne was accused of something by this woman and he wanted an explanation but she had “internet muscles” like many of you. Its simple, Osborne wanted an explanation of why she wrote those things about him but SHE was the coward and would not “face the music” and tell him. You have got to be kidding me if you are bringing up this nonsense as to destroy his credibility (as many of you SEC and oversigning supporters have)! nice try and good attempt at trying to ruffle the feathers. This writer is a joke if she can write something and not look Osborne in the eye (in this case, face the person she accused and dispute it) then she has not credibility. It would be the same if I accused Frank Beamer at a win at all cost mentality. Come on dude, try harder man. What a joke, seriously.

      • Read her original article. You tell me why every person who writes something a Congressman or Congresswoman doesn’t like should have to take time out of his or her day to explain themselves. If I had to go explain myself to the UNC President and Chancellor every time I wrote an editorial ripping one of their decisions in college, it would not have taken long for me to stop writing bad things about them.

        Her words were right there in print. If she got something wrong, then Tom could have documented it and forced a retraction.

        He was freaking Congressman at the time. If he didn’t like it, he could have written a press release or wrote a letter to her editor. But tracing phone calls? Multiple calls to the writer after she’s been asked to be left alone? Is this what Congressional offices should be doing – chasing down everyone who disagrees with them? It’s politics – someone’s going to disagree with you even if you find a way to balance the budget without cutting any services.

        She cited her reasons and her sources. Tom badly overreacted and acted unprofessionally as a result.

        • although he may have overreacted by calling her, she is an extreme writer with her opinions that just happen to be wrong. She needs to let it go and quit trying to stir the pot. Obviously she has a huge case of “internet muscles” and diarrhea mouth. Terrible read.

          • also, glad this article of garbage made it onto an oversigning website from 6 years ago. If you guys have something to call out Nebraska or Osborne on, related to oversigning, shoot.

          • No disagreement there. World Net Daily, after all.

            • its like watching all the political shows on Fox, interesting yes but what do they actually have to offer but a scare. I wonder what would happen if all these guys who dispute how the country is run, why dont they run for office to fix these problems. Interesting.

              • Hmmm. You mean the Wisconsin protests, the Egyptian protests, the Muslim Brotherhood and the Anti-Christ aren’t all linked together? Beck seemed so sure about that.

    • OSU’s problem.

      • You dont get punished as a conference. OSU’s problem, not the rest.

        • While I agree that this scandal should have no effect or should not reflect poorly on the other members of the B10, I do think that it is an issue for the B10 as an enforcement entity. Jim Delany has been extremely vocal about what he deems shortfallings of the SEC (including oversigning) yet we hear nothing from him when his own conference’s flagship is mired in major rules violations and attempted cover-ups. Where is the leadership? Where is the call for stricter punishment against OSU for these violations? If I were a coach or AD of one of the other B10 institutions, I would not be happy with the way Delany has handled things to date. And all the while Slive has not returned the favor, and has remained silent on Tressel.

  16. OSU and the Big 10 only care about winning. This is clear by the way it has handle its scandal committed by the head coach. Tressel must go and this site must demand it for the good of the sport and the SA.


    • Once again, where is the B1G mentioned in this article? It’s about OHIO STATE and their corruption.

      I understand that Delaney could have done something much like the SEC commissioner did with Pearl. I believe he should, but he has had a consistent pattern with all violations of deferring to the NCAA and their results. I’m no fan of Delaney.

  17. Rich: the Big Ten and the SEC are not in an academic struggle.
    Now, I admit that every school in the SEC would like to have the money and the endowments of a Northwestern or a Michigan, but most schools (with the exception of FL and Vandy) know that such a transformation is unlikely. Most schools in the SEC have to depend for funding on the parsimony of state legislatures, bodies who have little conception of the benefits of higher education and who view college appropriations as the first line items to reduce in times of budget shortfall.
    Most state schools in the SEC know this fact and have to live with it, regardless of however much money any Big Ten school possess.
    That said, I doubt that few if any schools in the SEC aspire to be like Big Ten schools; if SEC schools have any desire to academically emmulate other institutions of higher learning, I can assure you that some of the ACC schools are far more admired than is any school in the Big Ten.
    Why would any state school in the SEC aspire to be an Ohio State or Michigan when UNC and Virginia is close at hand?
    Why would Vanderbuilt want to be like Northwestern when Duke is just across the state line?
    Why would an SEC school want to improve its engineering program to the level of, say, Michigan State, when GA Tech is in Atlanta?
    I lived in the South almost all my life and I never heard anyone talk with envy about the Big Ten, academically or athletically. In fact, for most people in the South, the Midwest doesn’t even exist, except when they see cars with tags from a Midwest state driving south to flee the economic disaster that is the Midwest.

    • What Rich was speaking to is the amount of research dollars schools in the Big Ten receive that dwarf anything the AD’s. bring. Revenue from sports goes back into the AD to pay the enormous costs of a running a dept. as large as tOSU. All members of the Big Ten belong to the AAU while only two from the SEC and three from the ACC belong.

      And why are all of the folks from parts of the Midwest fleeing to head down south? Because GM couldn’t figure out how to make cars Americans wanted to buy and because the foreign care companies are putting plants in the south due the “Right to Work” status of that region. Otherwise, you would only see them on your golf courses and beaches. They weren’t fleeing back in the ’60′s or ’70′s when GM plants were churning out cars in plants with thousands of workers. A job is a job and sometimes you have to go where they are.

      • and thank you fair trade agreement. What you said there will be this countries downfall

        • coupled with the lack of reasonable attempts to solve real problems.

          My apologies to the community for continuing the off topic

      • As long as we’re rapping on this…

        I’ve been a student and teacher at UNC and Western Carolina. I have friends who teach at Texas, Michigan, and Penn — all top-notch schools. I also have friends who teach at Emory, Gardner-Webb, Western Carolina, UNC-Asheville, UNC-Charlotte… you get the picture.

        Basic impressions:
        If you’re a grad student, especially in the applied sciences, you need to be at a big research campus. You’ll be a slave for a few years, but your working environment will be cutting edge, and your fellow grad students will be your real educators.

        If you’re an undergraduate, you will most likely be an afterthought on the big research campus. The quality of education at the satellite schools, especially in the first two years, actually exceeds the quality at the flagships. It’s more than just the number of duties dumped on teaching assistants. Most professors at smaller schools take a lot more pride in their skill in the classroom and spend a lot more time sharing ideas about instruction.

        Part of the differences I see have much to do with a critical rethinking of the basic lecture model as a form of education, but my friends tell me that a good number of classes on the bigger campuses still involve professors who think their job is simply to stand in front of lecture hall, sound wicked smart for an hour, and then cancel their office hours every week. In other words, that whole teaching thing’s just an annoying distraction to them.

        IMO – that funnels down to the undergrads. If their professors don’t care, why should they? Kind of sad.

        Not every school’s like this, and most are getting better. UNC’s improved light years on that front in the past 15 years.

    • Octavian: Let’s not conflate undergrad reputation and sponsored research dollars. As a conference, the Big Ten dwarfs the SEC and outperforms by a lesser extent the ACC in terms of net endowment, sponsored research $ and ARWU rankings.

      This is an issue for the “professionals” who are in the business of higher education not the lay person on the street. I am not addressing what is popularly believed at a corner cafe. And of course the Big Ten and SEC are not in an academic struggle, the Little Ten of the SEC have not even entered the arena.

  18. I hate the SEC and all the corruption in that conference, however, I too am waiting to see you post something about tOSU… Jim Tressel is just as much of a scumbag as Nick Saben to me. And paying for sexuall services to try and land a recruit is WAAAAY of line. In fact, oversigning and what not go against NCAA rules, but paying for sexuall favors is aganst the law. I’m waiting. And don’t use the “It’s off topic” response either. This article was just as much “off topic” as posting about the Jim Tressel saga.

  19. Rich: I conflate nothing. Undergraduate education for is for almost all students the measure of their college experience. Few attend graduate school and fewer still have any connection with sponsored research. Endowment may be important to some, bui I doubt that any high school senior chooses Harvard becuase it has the largest endowment of any university in this counry. AAUW ranking may mean something to administrators, but again I doubt that many university students even know what the rankings mean.

    Just keep believing that the SEC is the Little Ten, if it pleases you. Personally, I consider the Big Ten a vastly overrated conference, as does my wife, who is a Stanford grad. To her. Big Ten claims of academic excellence are simply posturings from people who wouldn’t know real academic excellence if they were hit in the face with it.

    • While fairness can be given to your argument (and I would never list Vande or Florida anywhere near the likes of Ole Miss, etc), facts support (through just about any college ranking system…AAUW, Newsweek, ARWU, etc) that Big Ten schools on average are superior to just about any other conference in the nation. This is true for undergraduate OR graduate level educations.

      An excellent example is the Wall Street Journal did a survey of New York (city) Fortune 500 companies and the single most popular school for new hires (undergrad) was Penn State…beating ivy league schools much closer geographically.

      As for Stanford…well that’s a great school, no doubt about it. But I have to wonder if that isn’t more a “private school” mentality of not liking the thought that a public school is just as good at a fraction of the cost. IMO, I could have gotten into MIT (better rank-wise than either Stanford OR PSU), but in the end I got just as a good an education and saved myself a ton of money in the process (though none on car insurance…)…and ARWU supports my argument since both MIT and PSU were ranked top 10 in the world when I graduated.

      • Let’s be clear, the Big 10 is an ATHLETIC conference.

        The SEC is an ATHLETIC conference.

        The conferences have little to do with academics within the school.

        • when speaking about athletic conferences, they have nothing to do with academics but the schools who make up the Athletic conference (BIG) have everything to do with academics.

        • Sadly, I know that this is all too true for to many schools and this notion is supported by far too many “fans.”

    • Octavian, of course you can believe anything you wish and express it on this board. Your right can be exercised without any responsibility. It is a “free board.”

      If I understand your response, you believe that the excellence of a school should be weighted more heavily on the quality of its undergraduate program rather than the quality of its research or graduate programs. Would the academic preparation of the students who comprise the undergraduate body be a fair indicator of academic quality? I guess you will agree that test scores of a fair indicator since you can probably guess how well the Little Ten would fare on dimensions such as ACT or SAT scores. What about diversity of student body — the international representation of the student body? How would you evaluate academic excellence — since you already threw out traditional indicators of faculty research, scholarship and intellectual leadership.

  20. Actually the Big Ten, while being originally stood up as an athletic conference, has an “arm” of the conference solely dedicated to academic issues called the “Committee on Institution Cooperation”. This council creates a framework by which member schools collaborate and share research, pool resources (there is a current project to digitize all schools library volumes and make available to every member school), make collective bids on research grants, and helps deal with a number of other academic items. In fact, the University of Chicago, which does not even offer sports anymore, is a member of the Big Ten because it was offered membership to the CIC (it was a charter member, but decided to de-emphasize athletics to focus on academics before the CIC was stood up).

    Facts are while the SEC is JUST an athletic conference, the Big Ten is not.

  21. PSUGUY: who cares if the Big Ten has a academic arm that does whatever if does? I don’t know but I’d be willing to bet that the average undergrad at any Big Ten school has no contact with this “arm” and is totally unaware of the existence; and I’m all but certain that the average jock on scholarship nows nothing about any entity that makes collective bids on research grants. I could be wrong, but somehow I don’t think so.

    So what if the SEC is just an athlectic conference. I thought that was the subject of this board.
    You can rant about academics all you want, but your posts are just noise, just destractions, and pathetic attempts at self-aggradizement though association with an institutions with which you lost physical contact decades ago.

    Actually, the best article I’ve read on this issue – and one that puts the whole issue in perspective – can be read at blog.mlive.com/sports. The title of the article is “Steve Spurrier right to criticize Big Ten’s reluctance to “oversign’”.

    Rich2: I don’t know if your alma mater plays Duke, especially on a regular basis, at Cameron. Duke students have a habit of chanting at opposing teams and fans, “We’re smart, you’re dumb.” Since none of the schools in the Bit Ten has an academic rating as high as Duke’s, I suggest that when you see the Blue Devils play on television, you begin to chant, “We’re not as smart as Duke. We’re not as smart as Duke. We’re not as smart as Duke.”
    And if you happen to play Stanford, my wife suggests, “Stanford’s brilliant. We’re stupid.” “Stanford’s brilliant. We’re stupid.”

    In any event, none of the criteria you mention means a whit, especially if you’re losing games.
    Read (and digest) the post by “In the Middle(Tar Heel).

  22. Instead of talking about sign and place in general terms, let’s take a look at an example. Lonnie Outlaw signed with an SEC school in 2010. His high school coach stated in an interview on NSD that Outlaw would not qualify for freshman admission because he hadn’t taken the necessary classes. He was placed in an in-state Prep School and recently re-committed to the same SEC school stating, “It’s the thing that motivates me”.

    Was he signed in order to make him feel obligated to sign with the same school after finishing prep school? Or was he signed in order to give him something to work for while in prep school? Only Mark Richt knows.


    • Mark Richt at it again:

      Mayes was considered a longshot to qualify even before he signed with the Bulldogs back in February

      “Yes, he’s going to Mississippi Gulf Coast,” said Jeff Hyland, athletic director at Spalding. “That’s what the plan is. They’re going to try to get him in summer school. He’ll play his freshman and sophomore years, he’ll graduate in December and be at Georgia that spring. That’s the plan. That’s what they try to do down there.”

      Textbook sign and place. TD loves to argue that oversigning must be unethical because Florida and Vanderbilt don’t do it. Well, Florida and Vanderbilt don’t sign and place either, so…

    • Jalen Fields was another member of the ’10 UGA recruiting class who, like Outlaw, failed to qualify and enrolled at Georgia Military College. If you had any doubts as to whether or not Richt/UGA utilizes sign and place, then read this article:


      Even as the Bulldogs stuck with Fields during the recruiting process, academics were enough of a concern that Richt was already talking to him about taking the junior college route when he made a visit to Dalton in January. And while Fields publicly signed a scholarship with Georgia on national signing day on Feb. 3, he also quietly signed another scholarship with Georgia Military College.

      “When coach Richt came by for a home visit with me and my family, he talked about my situation and told me it wouldn’t be a bad thing if I had to go the Georgia Military route,” Fields said.

      “He said it would actually probably benefit me as far as coming along and getting time to play.”

  23. Meg: you are correct: Roger Staubach did graduate from the Naval Academy; but when he left high school, he could not qualify for the Academmy. He attended New Mexico Military Academy for one year to get his grades up to Academy demands.

  24. PSUGUY: I assure you that Stanford is a private institution and makes no claim otherwise.
    I admit I am annoyed (a little but just a little) when I hear Stanford alums refer to Harvard as the Stanford of the East, rather than the other way around. But after exposure to many highly intelligent people, I’ve learned that intellignece is relative, which is why I refuse to be impressed by claims from Big Ten supporters about the size of endowments, the academic ranking of conference members, or any other artificial criteria.
    In reality, none of it matters a whit. One can always find people who are better looking, more talented, or more intelligent than oneself. And one can always find the reverse.
    In college football, winning games does matter. And winning within the rules is essential. If those who do not like the practices of some SEC schools, want to change the rules, then do so. But do not complain of others refuse to be hectored into your point of view.

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