Quick Links — Oversigning News Abounds!
After a short sabbatical, it appears the topic of oversigning is rising back to the top of the list of things people are talking about in the world of college football. Perhaps it's because college football talk in general is starting to crank back up again and you almost can't talk about college football without saying the word oversigning in the next breath. It is by far, one of the most polarizing topics in college athletics in a long, long time.
Here is a list of quick links from around the Internet lately:
Jerry Hinnen on Mike Slive's push to legislate oversigning and other methods of roster management:
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/24156338/29397600
Sports by Brooks discovers what we wrote about 1 year and half ago regarding Nick Saban and his reaction to being asked about oversigning, complete with video mashup of Saban and Richt's comments:
http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/saban-sausage-factory-facing-expiration-date-29698
Matt Hinton (Dr. Saturday) drills Arkansas for their recent roster cuts as they get down to 85: http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Oversigning-Arkansas-cuts-to-the-chase-on-cutti?urn=ncaaf-wp1658
"To get there, the Razorbacks have had to shed more than 40 percent of the 83 players who signed as part of Petrino's first three recruiting classes from 2008-10. Of that number, only five (juco signees in the 2009 class whose eligibility expired after last season) left as a result of "natural" attrition, meaning a full third of Petrino's signees have either failed to qualify, flunked out, been placed on medical hardship, been kicked off for legitimate rules violations, quit or — as we saw last week — been effectively cut from the roster."
Ben Kercheval at NBCSports with more on Slive's proposal to address oversigning:
http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/05/18/sec-commish-slive-prepares-oversigning-legislation/
"Nevertheless, the act of oversigning and grayshirting recruits has become a very polarizing issue in both the SEC and college football (but mainly the SEC) and Slive is now apparently determined to settle the matter once and for all.
Initial details are sketchy, but Slive has reportedly finished writing conference legislation that, at least in some way, would affect the the practice of oversigning. Whether the package supports oversigning, regulates it or abolishes it, though, Slive wouldn’t say."
Those are just a few of the many links to oversigning articles that have made the rounds lately. The hottest topic in our opinion is that Mike Slive has prepared legislation regarding oversigning and various roster management practices such as grayshirting, early enrollment, etc. The details have not been released yet, but it will be interesting to see the details of the proposed legislation and how all of the SEC presidents vote.
The coming weeks are going to get very interesting around here.
Against Oversigning
In Favor of Oversigning
Blogroll
- Atholon Sports
- CFBDataWarehouse
- CFN – College Football News
- NCPA – Website
- NCSA – Athletic Recruiting
- POPA – Parents of Players Association
- RTN – Reform the NCAA
- The Drake Group
2011 Oversigning Cup
ESPN OTL Oversigning Video
Oversigning.com on Twitter
- @GerdOzone imagine what that number would be had he oversigned at the rate of Saban/Miles/Nutt/Petrino.
- @greggdoyelcbs someone tell the NCAA to call me.
- Fwiw, I just wanted to ban oversigning, you guys.
- @BryanDFischer @andrewjbone remind me again how many guys were in that 2008 class and how many had to be cut to make room for them all.
From People on Twitter
- Alabama and Mississippi were scary places in 1950. But the grandkids are doing a bang-up job: http://t.co/OiKZzyaC
- @JoePas_Doghouse @RowlffDogg Yes, he did.
Reader Survey – Vote Today!
Loading ...Pages
Meta
Categories
- ACC
- Announcements
- Baseball
- Basketball
- Big 10
- Big 10 Expansion
- Big 12
- Big East
- Coaching
- Feedback
- History
- MAC
- NCAA
- Non BCS Conferences
- Off Topic
- PAC 10
- Quick Links
- Rants
- SEC
- SunBelt
- The Oversigning Cup
- Uncategorized
Recent Comments
- Charlie9 on Elliott Porter 2.0
- Charlie9 on Elliott Porter 2.0
- Charlie9 on Elliott Porter 2.0
- Charlie9 on Elliott Porter 2.0
- WTF on Elliott Porter 2.0
Archives
- February 2012
- January 2012
- August 2011
- July 2011
- June 2011
- May 2011
- April 2011
- March 2011
- February 2011
- January 2011
- December 2010
- November 2010
- October 2010
- September 2010
- August 2010
- July 2010
- June 2010
- May 2010
- April 2010
- March 2010
- February 2010
May 18th, 2011 - 23:39
Once again, lots of articles filled with quotes taken out of context and blatent half-truths. Go back to my first comment to your previous post and answer me how it is that attrition rates for schools that oversign are practically the same asz those that don’t? How is that possible with all those forced attritions taking place?
May 19th, 2011 - 06:24
How big was your sample size again, 1 year? I thought we all agreed that a certain amount of natural attrition is going to take place — if you take out all of the academic non-qualifiers, the sign and place guys, guys who were arrested and had to be removed, etc., I’m sure the numbers get closer. But if the attrition is the same and one school is over and another signed to its limit or 85, then you are going to have one schools that comes in right at 85 and another school that is way under. Oh that’s right, you said the competitive advantage of coming in at 85 after all the attrition didn’t matter…I forgot about that.
May 19th, 2011 - 07:30
i believe his sample size was 5 years, or something close
May 19th, 2011 - 09:14
You’re right Josh, it was for only one year – and that is certainly not enough to establish a pattern for any one school. It was also, however, done for 24 schools and that is enough to establish an average attrition for these conferences, which is about 26.5%. Now look at the SEC East, the notorious oversigning club. Surely they are way above this, right?
Alabama-28%
Arkansas-27%
Auburn-48%
Ole Miss-19%
Miss St-30%
LSU-23%
Average is 29.23%
Take out the Auburn outlier and you get 25.42%
Take out the two B10 outliers (Iowa and Mich State) and they have 24.74%
Where are all the cut players? Did all the SECeast teams get together and decide not to cut anyone from the 2008 class? Or perhaps oversigning is in preparation of natural attrition, in which case you are correct in that it is an advantage to teams that do it – and you’re also correct in that it doesn’t matter. Managing one’s roster is part of the duties of a well-paid coach and if he is able to do it well (and the right way) he (and the team) will reap the benefits of it.
Now if you want to address what affects the kids, then lets discuss ways to make it clear to them what they are getting into, and make the coaches be upfront and honest about any grayshirt offers that may be coming their way. I (and most of the other “pro-oversigning” posters here) will be on board with that, and I hope that is the central focus of what Slive is presenting.
May 20th, 2011 - 07:16
You took way too many liberties with your “acceptable attrition” to justify any of your numbers. Reasons on why people leave (other than early entry to NFL) aren’t really “excused attrition”.
May 20th, 2011 - 08:49
Please explain more. The only people I didn’t count were guys going pro, guys who exhausted their eligibility, and guys who never set foot on campus. Everyone else got counted. How is any of this not excused attrition? How can you accuse a coach of cutting a guy who couldn’t play any more? How can you accuse him of cutting a guy who never set foot on campus?
May 20th, 2011 - 12:26
You counted people who “decided to play baseball” and people who greyshirted (who is to say he didn’t get a clear picture about the possibility of greyshirting?), and the guy who wasn’t able to get in? Please. That would give 13/32 players for bama who weren’t with the team, an attrition rate of about 40%.
May 20th, 2011 - 12:43
Yes, Destin Hood and Melvin Ray were two highly talented players who signed an LOI. Neither player set foot on campus however as they both accepted a MLB contract before they enrolled. How could they, in any reasonable way be considered having left a team they were never a part of? Likewise the guy who didn’t get in due to grades. The issue with the grayshirt that never enrolled has some merit, but my criteria (set before I ever looked at any of this) was that the player had to participate on the team before leaving. The one exception to this was Ole Miss where I found an article where the player stated that he was asked to grayshirt after the fact – so I counted him. If you can find a similar article about Jermaine Preyear then I’ll adjust for him. While you’re at it, look for Cruz Williams (Arkansas) and Taylor Hill (Michigan) as they were also players who transferred without ever counting and treated just the same in my analysis.
Remember, the point of my analysis is to find proof (or lack thereof) of players being kicked off the team to make room for oversigned classes. Kids that don’t make it on the team can’t be kicked off.
May 21st, 2011 - 16:56
a Kid who signed an LOI but is forced to greyshirt is essentially being cut. He’s being screwed over by an unscrupulous coach. Who is to say the kids playing baseball were told “you’re gonna have to greyshirt”, so they chose to do baseball?
Yes, signing the LOI and then getting forced to greyshirt is a bad practice, equal to getting cut. In both cases, the needs of the School and program are put before the student. We are arguing that it should be the other way around.
May 21st, 2011 - 23:28
I agree, any kid being forced to grayshirt after the fact, then transferring because of it would count, as the kid from Ole Miss was. There is, however, no evidence that this has occured with Preyear (Williams or Hill). If you have anything other than preconceived notions that everyone that leaves Bama does so because of oversigning then please show it and I’ll adjust the numbers. It is just as likely (more so) that the kid(s) had a change of heart or maybe even didn’t get qualified. I found no reason given for any of these transfers and since I assume nothing, I stick with the guidelines I set for all schools and didn’t count them.
You really think that a kid who is offered good money in the MLB draft and accepts it is only doing so because the coach (who says he has never asked a kid to grayshirt after the fact) asks him to grayshirt? It couldn’t possibly be the actual money they will pocket by going pro could it? If you really think that then I really don’t think you can look at this objectively.
May 22nd, 2011 - 10:05
There is the crux of your argument. You say i have pre-conceived notions about anyone leaving bama due to oversigning, which is not the case. You are, in fact, assuming that the baseball players and they greyshirts have not left because of oversigning, and you require proof that they do? Why not just take that approach overall?
You can’t claim an unbiased study and then make assumptions.
May 22nd, 2011 - 11:08
Luke,
The claim that’s been made here many, many times is that underperforming players are run off to make room for more talented in-coming recruits. The only way to test that accusation is to compare attrition rates amongst players who actually matriculate onto the team. The cases you’re arguing about never made it onto campus, never set foot on the practice field, so how would they have been deemed underperformers by the coaching staff? Catch 5 isn’t making assumptions; he’s establishing the criteria necessary to effectively examine one specific claim – that players on the roster are forced to leave due to oversigning.
May 20th, 2011 - 08:49
I did Iowa over 8. 40% plus for a school that’s an oversigning advocate’s dream: 21.8. Which proves that the Big 10 rules do nothing to stop a coach determined to turn over his roster.
I genuinely hope the SEC puts something comprehensive on the table that benefits all of the athletes — more scholarship protection, more health concern, and more disclosure in the recruiting process. But I suspect any and all proposals will be slave to the almighty $$$ at the end of the day. I hope I’m wrong.
May 20th, 2011 - 12:27
Or it means that some people leave for academic reasons. You know, they can’t play anymore because they are not doing what they are supposed to be in school for, being a student and studying?
May 20th, 2011 - 12:47
So it is ok to have a player that leaves mid-career due to academics, but not one that can’t get started for the same reason?
May 20th, 2011 - 14:39
40%+ for the kids who actually enroll stinks. Period. Way worse than numbers that require the inclusion of kids who never enroll, in my opinion.
Football factories are football factories. This isn’t an SEC thing, no matter how contorted the definitions and time lines required to make it look that way.
But if the SEC takes a lead on roster management, and the Big 10 takes the lead on stipends, then hey — both conferences turn lemon to lemonade and make their Big 6 club just a little more exclusive.
May 21st, 2011 - 16:52
Ha. Thats the difference. The big 10 doesn’t view its programs as “football factories” nor do we want to be associated as such. We’re colleges, institutions of higher learning. We may not always hit or goal, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have a clear indication of where we want to go.
This is a difference in culture. Its a “football is king” down here methodology, whereas up north our schools and educational system are more important.
As for stipends, i think that is a good thing. You can’t expect a student to have to work out/spend all of his free time in the football complex, and with no time for a job. Giving the students a “cost of living” adjustment would cut down on some of the corruption. Especially if they lose their “cost of living” adjustment if its shown that they’ve taken money/sold items.
May 21st, 2011 - 19:14
40%+ attrition for enrolled kids makes you a football factory, no matter how much you want to pretend that Big 10 membership protects you from that claim. Saban has a higher APR and better attrition rate than Ferentz — but one’s in the SEC and one’s in the Big 10, so you have you opinion, no matter the evidence.
From where I sit in the ACC, nothing’s more laughable than the contention that Big 10 schools want to “win with honor” while SEC schools just want to win no matter what. Simply hysterical.
May 23rd, 2011 - 08:34
“You can’t expect a student to have to work out/spend all of his free time in the football complex, and with no time for a job.”
why cant you? They have been doing that for a long time and it has worked, why all of a sudden now wouldnt it work?
May 23rd, 2011 - 22:25
Luke,
I’ll also point out that many of the anti-oversigning crowd have attacked the SEC because of amateurism issues. A frequent claim is that the student athletes in the SEC are being treated more like professional players. The same argument can be used against the Big 10 regarding stipends, but I haven’t seen any OSU and/or Big 10 supporters attesting to the evilness of these stipends.
It is also clear that the stipends would give rise to competitive advantages. I have no problem with schools gaining a competitive advantage, but many on this forum have claimed that the advantage itself is unethical.
May 23rd, 2011 - 22:35
Also…
How is it that the Big 10 starts making noise about considering paying the players, and it is defended on this forum?
If the SEC were the first on this side of the issue, they would be hammered by the anti-oversigning (Big 10) crowd.
May 19th, 2011 - 06:30
Great to see oversigning back in the news. It’s positively criminal what’s happening. Make kids rely on promises you have no intention of keeping? That goes against the concept of good faith and fair dealing that undergirds any contract here in the United States. These kids could bring the machine down if they joined as a class.
Also, quick fyi, Penn State’s Brandon Ware is leaving the program due to academic ineligibility, so at present PSU is at the 85 man limit exactly, counting its incoming class. And, considering a quarterback transfer (maybe 2) is likely, I expect they’ll be under the limit within the month. We are.
May 21st, 2011 - 08:03
I think Josh thinks the numbers needs to be meet at the LOI date, not months later… that’s his argument with Alabama… that they “make” the 85 number in time because players leave or don’t qualify… If you agree with Josh, then Penn State doesn’t get a pass either… They FAIL just as hard as Alabama if you agree with Josh…
Now, as for me… I don’t agree with Josh so I think Penn State is doing just fine and “smartly” recruited knowing that they would lose a few kids and that some might not qualify. I’m sure that Penn State recruited a few guys with them knowing their intention to Greyshirt them…
May 19th, 2011 - 07:29
seriously? Early enrollment is roster management? I thought it was kids busting their butts to graduate early and be able to go thru spring practice with a team to have a better chance at competing for a starter or backup spot as a true freshman.
May 19th, 2011 - 09:19
There’s a simple way to get rid of all “roster management” issues. Get rid of the 85 scholly limit while setting a hard limit of 25 new LOIs per team per year (no backcounting). Problem solved.
May 19th, 2011 - 14:29
Sounds good, but why stop there? If this is really about the treating the kids fairly why have scholarship limits at all?
May 19th, 2011 - 10:02
Time for a little game of “whose quote”.
Here’s a hint, one of them is mine and another is someone who it appears needs to be moved from the “opposed to oversigning” list to “supports oversigning” list at the top right of this page.
http://ugadogsblog.blogspot.com/2011/05/richt-slams-what-he-calls-winning-at.html
May 19th, 2011 - 10:54
you forgot this doozy. Sorry, i dont know how to do the quotes boxes.
“Richt said Georgia usually has at least one player that grayshirts in every class. The public doesn’t even know about it, he added.”
May 19th, 2011 - 12:17
What, you mean that Richt has admitted to hiding information from the public? Where is the flood of media demanding to know every detail about his numbers? Where is his list of scholarship players? Do we know that it is only one player and not five or ten? How do we know that this player was aware of is offer before he signed?
This is outrageous! I thought this type of unethical activity was only found in the SECw. Where is Texas Dawg? It seems his school and Nick Saban have more in common than we thought.
May 19th, 2011 - 19:03
He hasn’t been oversigned in the past several years, so he hasn’t faced such questions. (If you’re going to attempt to excuse your bad behavior by the bad behavior of someone else, you should at least not resort to ignoring such obvious explanations.)
But his willingness to be oversigned is a problem that should be condemned and fixed as well.
May 20th, 2011 - 08:56
You only think he doesn’t oversign the past several years. According to Richt himself, he says that they usually have at least one guy greyshirt every year but that the public doesn’t even know about it, I assume that includes you.
As little as you deserve credit in any other issue or respect, at least you are consistent and come out against Richt when he proves you wrong about how they do things. Now if you could only explain why doing things the way he describes it is wrong, then we would be getting somewhere…
May 21st, 2011 - 00:39
What he clearly meant was that every year they’ve had at least one player that was willing to grayshirt if necessary. They haven’t oversigned in recent years though. Everyone’s been aware of the numbers.
May 23rd, 2011 - 08:35
how would you know what he clearly meant?
May 19th, 2011 - 12:36
Wow, that seems like a very different story than the headline I saw getting tossed around. Its almost as if Richt himself is “in the middle” on this issue.
May 19th, 2011 - 18:59
Agreed. I’d take him out of the “against oversigning” column.
Richt doesn’t do what Alabama does thankfully, but he was still defending oversigning there and his defense should be condemned. Georgia should join Florida in declaring that grayshirting and oversigning are completely off the table going forward.
Georgia sits at a very clear fork in the road. Down one road is 2011 and a New South of economically prosperous, academically respectable universities either located in cities or states home to several large cities (Florida and Vanderbilt)… and down the other is Harvey Updyke land: culturally homogenous, economically stagnant, rural areas home to very poorly regarded universities.
Georgia Tech saw the writing on the wall decades ago. At a time when the state of Georgia and the states of Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Arkansas were all roughly the same ecoonomically, culturally, and in population. In 2011, the world has changed and while Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Arkansas are pretty much the same places, only now being run by the grandkids, the state of Georgia has boomed in population (and thus economically) and is now home to one of the largest metropolitan areas in the country. And thus Georgia Tech drastically, academically outranks every SEC West school.
Modernity or George Wallace’s Updyketopia. The latter might come with more CFB wins… but I think the choice is pretty obvious for people who actually care about universities and academics.
May 20th, 2011 - 07:28
you think UGA should join UF in declaring grayshirting is off the table. Yet now Richt is on record as saying he constantly grayshirts, and Urban Meyer frequently offered grayshirts to recruits too.
May 20th, 2011 - 07:32
and you realize GA’s population growth was a direct results of them hosting the Olympics right
May 21st, 2011 - 00:37
LMAO.
May 21st, 2011 - 08:10
Sorry Tre, GA population growth is in direct relationship with the nations busiest airport… If
Birmingham would have had the same growth had they had the airport located near them. As business moved from the north to the south for tax breaks and better weather… the Atlanta Airport was one of the key factors in their decision. When those companys started to move their headquarters here, their employees moved with them. Now a days, Atlanta isn’t really a “southern” city in it’s people… most of the people are transplants from the North.
May 23rd, 2011 - 08:38
look at the figures. the GA population grew more than 1.5 million within 18 months after the 96 Olympics. GA does not have the tax breaks people seem to think they have.
May 23rd, 2011 - 14:17
Look at the Airport growth…International traffic at Hartsfield-Jackson Airport has was 8,000 daily international passengers in 1996, 23,000 today; 60 international departures in 1996, 150 today.
If you look back Pre-Olympics, you’ll see Atlanta population growth is pretty steady… since the 1980 recession, when many northern company’s started to move south.
Click here for graph.
Now, if you want to say the Olympics cause an spike in immigrant population, you would be correct. The construction for the olympics cause a lot of that.
May 23rd, 2011 - 14:27
BTW, Tre… I don’t think you’re 1.5 million in 18 months is correct… as Georgia only has added 1.7 million from April 1, 1990 to April 1 2000 according to the census… You might need to double check your source…
Census Report 2000
May 23rd, 2011 - 15:12
dont just look at Atlanta itself, the surrounding suburbs have all grown large too.
May 24th, 2011 - 11:08
ahh… the stats I gave you were for the STATE of Georgia, which would include all surrounding areas… I think you’re number is a zero off… the STATE of Georgia added 155k to it’s population between 1996 and 1997….
Look at the charts, it’s been a steady growth since the 80′s recession… taxes are much lower, and the cost of livnig much lower in the South as compared to the North. Things have changed over the last 30 years though, and the cost of living and taxes have gone up a good bit in Georgia as the infrastructure has been “challenged” from all the population growth.
Most historians agree that the single most important factor in Georgia’s growth over throught the late 70′s to late 90′s is the Airport…
Frederick Allen writes (author of Atlanta Rising):
Furthermore he says:
The years immediately following World War II were a critical time for Atlanta, and it is here that Frederick Allen begins “Atlanta Rising,” his highly readable account of the city’s rise to regional dominance. Atlanta’s triumph over such rivals as New Orleans and Birmingham was by no means inevitable, and Allen attributes the success to the city’s distinctly un-Southern mindset. “Atlanta emerged as the capital of the New South for a reason,” he says, “and that reason was a willingness to embrace change.”
None of this has anything to do with Georgia Tech leaving the SEC nor does it relate to Oversigning… but I think it is a very important thing to keep in mind when looking at the different State Universities of the south.
May 20th, 2011 - 08:38
Harvey’s from Texas. Moved to Alabama after a stint in the military, I believe.
Your “the university precedes the big, prosperous cities” rather than the “big, prosperous cities precede the universities” is exactly backwards, as every economics professor at Emory, G-Tech, Georgia State, and even Kennesaw State will tell you.
Alabama’s not close to the same state it was even 20 years ago. Pretending that it hasn’t changed is beyond foolish and insults every person in that state who’s been working their butts off to change it.
Once again, you take an important issue and conflate it with sheer nonsense. Outside of Atlanta, Georgia’s no different than any other state in the South, and Atlanta does not exist today because of the University of Georgia or Georgia Tech.
Your hatred for Alabama, rather than the welfare of these kids, shines through in all your posts. And that’s just sad. Start an “I hate everything about Alabama” web site, but leave this issue alone. It doesn’t need supporters like you.
May 21st, 2011 - 00:33
– Um, never said the university precedes the city. Not sure where you got that.
– I didn’t say Alabama was the exact same as 20 years ago. Just pretty much the same. Which it is.
– And yes, outside of metro Atlanta, Georgia is very much like the SEC West. But metro Atlanta is over half the population of the state and 2/3rds of the state’s economy. So it is a lot closer to 2011 than it is to Alabama… and fortunately getting farther and farther from Alabama et al. with every passing day.
May 21st, 2011 - 09:47
How much time have you actually spent in Alabama? I’ve lived in this state my whole life, and while it is not perfect, it is nowhere near what you describe.
May 21st, 2011 - 13:55
You say it all the time. You cast the correlation as cause-effect. And once again, you pretend that you never do something that you constantly do.
Sherman razed Atlanta and not Birmingham or Montgomery for a specific reason. Georgia and Alabama have never been at “roughly the same point economically,” and your weird attempts to recast a modern-day correlation (wealthy states = better universities) into some sort of historical imperative would earn you an F in any History 101 at U.Ga.
I don’t know why you insist on arguing that the fans of Georgia, Ohio, North Carolina, Alabama, or Louisiana represent some sort of mini-nationalities with the same sort of cultural differences that separate a France and Germany. We all speak the same language. We all attend the same churches. We all love the same sports. And we all tend to defend our universities hell or high water. I’m baffled by some UNC fans who can’t see anything wrong with Butch’s program. I’m baffled by Ohio State fans who can’t see anything wrong with Tressel’s program. I’m baffled by your inability to see any connection between Richt’s players lack of focus off the field and their lack of focus on it, instead blaming it all on Saban. O.k. Whatever.
Georgia hired Jim Harrick as a proven cheater – who then cheated his way out the door. Does that make it U.Ga a pathetic “win-at-all-costs” state?
Have a nice weekend.
May 21st, 2011 - 16:45
No, sherman never razed atlanta. Thats a common myth/perception. There were some fires started by some drunken soldiers (i guess they could riot pretty hard back then also), but sherman never ordered the city to be burned.
May 21st, 2011 - 19:15
????
So he went there to deliver humanitarian aid since U.Ga doesn’t oversign?
May 22nd, 2011 - 09:31
That wasn’t an oversigning comment as much as it was just a comment on history. I’m a history buff, just stating an inconsistency. It had nothing to do with oversigning
May 23rd, 2011 - 09:17
@Luke, actually Sherman did raze Atlanta. He didnt mean to burn the entire city down, but he did order his troops to burn down any building that would help the confederacy. They just couldnt stop the spread of the fire.
May 23rd, 2011 - 15:08
Let me try that again…..
@Luke, where are you getting this information… in Sherman’s Memoirs he states:
Almost every resourse I’ve read says that General Sherman gave orders to burn all public buildings, machine shops, depots, and arsenals…
I’d like to read your source too and compare it to what I’ve read in the past…
May 23rd, 2011 - 15:07
@Luke, where are you getting this information… in Sherman’s Memoirs he states: [blockquote]ABOUT seven A. M. of November 16 we rode out of Atlanta by the Decatur road, filled by the marching troops and wagons of the Fourteenth Corps, and, reaching the hill just outside of the old rebel works, we naturally paused to look back upon the scenes of our past battles. We stood upon the very ground whereon was fought the bloody battle of July 22, and could see the copse of wood where McPherson fell. [B]Behind us lay Atlanta, smouldering in ruins, the black smoke rising high in air, and hanging like a pall over the ruined city.[/B] Almost every resourse I’ve read says that General Sherman gave orders to burn all public buildings, machine shops, depots, and arsenals…
I’d like to read your source too and compare it to what I’ve read in the past…
May 25th, 2011 - 20:02
Just google it, and see sherman burning atlantla. How can you burn down the city if only 30% was damaged? Yes, there were some fires set to military buildings, railroads, etc, but he wasn’t burning /attacking civilians. There is a difference. The “burn it to the ground” was mostly caused by southern sympathizers who were angry at him.
May 23rd, 2011 - 20:23
No, I’ve never said it’s a cause-effect. You have really poor reading comprehension if you really believe that.
Cities produce universities. The SEC West states don’t have any real cities (other than a now obliterated New Orleans) thus they have very poorly rated state universities with weak institutional cultures.
May 24th, 2011 - 07:26
Hmm. You constantly suggest that SEC West states lag their neighbors economically because they remain “stuck” in their football fanaticism. “Because.” Note the word “cause” in there. Economic progress or decline, all hinging apparently on the rejection of “oversigning.” Which strongly infers that the binary relationship is cause-effect. Did you take Philosophy 101 at U.Ga? Or English 101, for that matter?
As far as I can tell, Alabama seems to be surging the last 10 years economically. They’re gaining military bases while other states are losing them. They’ve picked up several auto manufacturing plants. Birmingham’s become a world-class medical care destination. They don’t seem to be dealing with the same level of budget crisis that we’re experiencing here in North Carolina, despite all of our AAU schools and downsized football expectations. Their population continues to grow, importing lots of transplants from B1G states. Hey, maybe they need to oversign more.
I get along with lots of posters on both sides of the issue here, and I understand their opinions. I don’t always agree with them, but I find that 78Lion, Sanford, Vesper and C5 all honor some basic rules of conversation. I don’t see how you think you’re helping your cause or persuading anyone, given that all 4 of them seem to find you tiresome as well.
But keep posting nonsense if you want. Free country.
May 20th, 2011 - 09:04
Just to be clear, are you suggesting that grayshirting and oversigning in college football have a negative effect on that school’s academic status and the state’s economic prosperity? I know people like to say that college football is king in the south, but you realize that it doesn’t have the power of an actual monarch, right?
You’ve got your causes and effects all screwed up. You seem to suggest that the state of Georgia has prospered because of policies inacted by UGA and GT when, in fact, UGA and GT have prospered because of policies inacted by the state of Georgia, namely, the HOPE scholarship program. The key to achieving prosperity in other southern states lies in improving the broken K-12 educational system, but I fail to see how eliminating oversigning and grayshiring will accomplish that. I also fail to see how it would lead to economic prosperity. Explain to me how eliminating oversigning would increase median wages or bring in foreign industries. On a side note, at what point do you predict that the state of Florida will begin its economic and academic nosedive since FSU, Miami, USF, and UCF all oversign? Or does UF’s policies against oversigning offset the combined effects of the other 4?
Really, this is just a new verse to the same ole’ TD song – an attempt to portray the SEC West as outliers. He would have us believe that only the SEC West oversigns while the rest of the country watches disapprovingly. Based on Josh’s Oversigning Cup standings and my research, it appears that the majority of schools oversign to some degree (even in the Big Ten) with only a few choosing not to oversign. Don’t believe me?
Michigan State, Ohio State, Penn State, Wisconsin, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, Clemson, Miami, Florida State, UNC, Virginia, Notre Dame, UCLA, Washington, Oregon State, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Tulsa, Colorado State, Rutgers, South Florida, Kansas State, Central Florida.
And that is in no way a complete list, not even close. If you include basketball and other sports, the list grows even more. Oversigning takes place from Washington to Miami and pretty much everywhere in between, so you can stop trying to paint this as a practice that is only used by a few poor, ignorant southern states.
May 20th, 2011 - 09:32
Silly Vesper, if he abandons this argument, he has nothing left! Everyone knows a troll loses his value if he has to actually argue the subject at hand.
May 19th, 2011 - 18:29
Haven’t heard anything about this on here. “Holier than thou” Big ten school PSU apparently oversigned it’s 2011 recruiting class. Asst Coach JayPa should pay more attention to his schools oversigning than criticizing other schools. great article
http://pittsburgh.sbnation.com/penn-st-nittany-lions/2011/5/18/2177192/penn-state-depth-chart-injuries-oversigning
May 19th, 2011 - 18:48
Hilarious to see how pissed off Saban gets when asked a simple question by Ian Rapoport.
THAT is what being unethical looks like.
May 20th, 2011 - 07:29
looks about as uncomfortable as Richt is when question about the number of arrests on the UGA football team.
May 20th, 2011 - 19:19
Or perhaps why his team’s graduation rate is lower than that of the educational, cultural, and geographical septic tank known as Alabama.
Kid, I hope for your sake you grow out of this unfounded snobbery. Not a good look.
May 21st, 2011 - 00:36
Does that count all of Alabama’s non-qualifiers, transfers, etc.?
It must blow your mind that Alabama is so poorly academically rated.
May 22nd, 2011 - 10:53
US News & World Report has UGA at 56, UA at 79 for college rankings nationwide. If that’s a “poor” rating, then yours must be “kinda sucks”. Not exactly a gulf separating the two.
May 23rd, 2011 - 20:26
That’s simply undergrad.
A better measure of a school is across the entire campus, including the graduate levels. There UGA distances itself from Alabama even more.
But no, I don’t think UGA is anything special. It’s certainly no SEC West school… but still a ways to go to reach the mid-Atlantic state schools it should be aspiring to reach.
May 24th, 2011 - 08:33
Have not visited in a while, the thread has taken an interesting turn. Three quick comments:
” 56 vs. 79″ in USNWR represents a difference in ranking that will persist for decades. There is very little net movement in these types of rankings due to the categories that are included.
ARWU rankings, THES/QS rankings. AAU membership, Sponsored Research $, and Endowment should be included as well in your consideration. The SEC, except for Vanderbilt, falls off the map as more “academic” criteria are included.
Finally, am reading that Vesper, et al are arguing for the “SEC West” economic miracle? Like Dukakis in 1984? Alabama, Miss, LA and Ark are leading the way?
Interesting.
May 24th, 2011 - 10:01
It’s a difference. It’s not a dichotomy. And either way, it has nothing to do with football.
May 24th, 2011 - 11:25
“Finally, am reading that Vesper, et al are arguing for the “SEC West” economic miracle?” – May I ask on what you base that claim with respect to me?
As In the Middle mentioned, it’s interesting how this type of arguement continues to pop up even though it doesn’t have anything to do with football. It seems there’s a concerted effort by TD, rich, Josh, and others to steer the arguement toward some sort of percieved flaw in the cultural mindset of southern states (Georgia and Florida excluded). I guess the implication is that economic and academic shortcomings are a result of strong interest in college football among many residents in the area. I have to guess because no one ever comes right out and makes a specific claim.
What I find very interesting is that these same arguements almost always contain an element of condescension and elitism. They put down the South in an effort to elevate themselves or their respective regions.
TD: “In 2011, the world has changed and while Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Arkansas are pretty much the same places, only now being run by the grandkids, the state of Georgia has boomed in population (and thus economically) and is now home to one of the largest metropolitan areas in the country. And thus Georgia Tech drastically, academically outranks every SEC West school.”
Josh: “Slightly unrelated, NFF honor society list is out: 29 B1G members; 14 SEC. Vandy 1, OSU, Indiana, BYU tied @ 6″
Josh: “Just an FYI, the Big 10 Conf completely banned oversigning from 1956 until 2002; relaxed rule in 02 to allow a monitored waiver for up to 3. So should the SEC address it in the spring, do not let Slive spin it like they are on the forefront…they are 50 years behind.”
Even if Josh wins the battle and the SEC bans oversigning, he’ll still be unhappy if it results in the SEC being given credit for something.
Here’s my attempt at pop psychology. Many people in this country view the southeastern portion of the United States as being inferior in most, if not all, meaningful measures. And I understand where it comes from. Look at the history books: slavery, the Civil War, KKK, Civll Rights movement. Look at the way it is portrayed in pop culture. Look at the statistics on education and economic prosperity. All these things help reinforce that percption that the South is inferior. And that’s why it’s particularly hard for people who have this mindset to accept that the South could actually be the best at something. To them, there’s no legitimate way that the SEC could win 5 national championships simply because the teams are located in the South. Therefore, the winning must be the result of cheating. Of course, this arguement is only effective if you can show that the “cheating” is only occurring in the SEC which explains why Josh has focused his campaign almost exclusively on the SEC when the reality is that oversigning is prevalent in every region of the US.
Was this statement based on the types of categories included in the rankings as you claim? Or was it subconsciously based on your long-standing perception of Alabama as an inferior state and university? Either way, I disagree with your premise. Last year’s USNWR: Georgia – 58, Alabama – 96. So Alabama cut the deficit from 38 to 23 in one year. I don’t know that Alabama will ever catch UGA in the USNWR, but I do know that Alabama has made great strides in improving the quality of education it provides over the past 10 years. I’m sure it will never be good enough for some people, but those able to view the South with an open mind have and will continue to recognize the improvement.
May 24th, 2011 - 11:30
“Finally, am reading that Vesper, et al are arguing for the “SEC West” economic miracle?” – May I ask on what you base that claim with respect to me?
As In the Middle mentioned, it’s interesting how this type of arguement continues to pop up even though it doesn’t have anything to do with football. It seems there’s a concerted effort by TD, rich, Josh, and others to steer the arguement toward some sort of percieved flaw in the cultural mindset of southern states (Georgia and Florida excluded). I guess the implication is that economic and academic shortcomings are a result of strong interest in college football among many residents in the area. I have to guess because no one ever comes right out and makes a specific claim.
What I find very interesting is that these same arguements almost always contain an element of condescension and elitism. They put down the South in an effort to elevate themselves or their respective regions.
TD: “In 2011, the world has changed and while Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Arkansas are pretty much the same places, only now being run by the grandkids, the state of Georgia has boomed in population (and thus economically) and is now home to one of the largest metropolitan areas in the country. And thus Georgia Tech drastically, academically outranks every SEC West school.”
Josh: “Slightly unrelated, NFF honor society list is out: 29 B1G members; 14 SEC. Vandy 1, OSU, Indiana, BYU tied @ 6″
Josh: “Just an FYI, the Big 10 Conf completely banned oversigning from 1956 until 2002; relaxed rule in 02 to allow a monitored waiver for up to 3. So should the SEC address it in the spring, do not let Slive spin it like they are on the forefront…they are 50 years behind.”
Even if Josh wins the battle and the SEC bans oversigning, he’ll still be unhappy if it results in the SEC being given credit for something.
Here’s my attempt at pop psychology. Many people in this country view the southeastern portion of the United States as being inferior in most, if not all, meaningful measures. And I understand where it comes from. Look at the history books: slavery, the Civil War, KKK, Civll Rights movement. Look at the way it is portrayed in pop culture. Look at the statistics on education and economic prosperity. All these things help reinforce that percption that the South is inferior. And that’s why it’s particularly hard for people who have this mindset to accept that the South could actually be the best at something. To them, there’s no legitimate way that the SEC could win 5 national championships simply because the teams are located in the South. Therefore, the winning must be the result of cheating. Of course, this arguement is only effective if you can show that the “cheating” is only occurring in the SEC which explains why Josh has focused his campaign almost exclusively on the SEC when the reality is that oversigning is prevalent in every region of the US.
Was this statement based on the types of categories included in the rankings as you claim? Or was it subconsciously based on your long-standing perception of Alabama as an inferior state and university? Either way, I disagree with your premise. Last year’s USNWR: Georgia – 58, Alabama – 96. So Alabama cut the deficit from 38 to 23 in one year. I don’t know that Alabama will ever catch UGA in the USNWR, but I do know that Alabama has made great strides in improving the quality of education it provides over the past 10 years. I’m sure it will never be good enough for some people, but those able to view the South with an open mind have and will continue to recognize the improvement.
May 20th, 2011 - 19:36
Interesting article about new Colorado coach, Jon Embree:
http://www.buffzone.com/ci_17799484
http://www.buffzone.com/ci_18093026?source=most_viewed
Must’ve slipped past the oversigning.com radar.
May 21st, 2011 - 14:09
Article about last year’s APR penalties assessed to FCS program, Indiana State University:
Head Coach Trent Miles:
AD Ron Prettyman:
http://tribstar.com/collegesports/x1358981757/ISU-football-APR-penalty-won-t-have-any-practical-effect
Not really an oversigning issue, but shows that winning is not just a priority at big-time schools in the SEC and Big Ten.
May 23rd, 2011 - 18:39
I will tip my hat to the SEC for leading the nation in consecutive national championships. I will also boo and hiss at the fact that they lead the nation in oversigning, and imply a causality.
May 23rd, 2011 - 19:29
Sherman may not have burned Atlanta, but the devastation wrought by his army on the march to Savannah far exceeded that caused by the fire in Atlanta. After all. Atlanta recovered rather quickly, but the effects of Sherman’s march to the sea were felt by rural GA for generations.
May 23rd, 2011 - 19:54
Demetrius Goode transfers to North Alabama
May 24th, 2011 - 13:22
Yes, believe he has graduated too… he’s playing the last year of his eligibility at UNA to get starting time… he has only seen limited field time with Trent and Ingram ahead of him not to mention Eddie Lacy. I wish him well as I always liked him…. I think injuries really hampered his performance early and he never able to get a step ahead of those around him. He did finish his education, and for that I’m proud of him and hope it serves him well.