Oversigning.com
22Jul/11147

Alabama’s March to 85 Finished?

Updated with new numbers.

Here is what appears to be the final shake down on Alabama's post NSD attrition this year.  Much like last year, Alabama is one of the few teams in the country to lose double-digit players post NSD.  Quick, name another school that has lost 21 scholarships players between NSD and August over the last 2 years.  That's an entire recruiting class.  And 6 of those 21 were medical hardships.  Here is the attrition for Alabama between National Signing Day and the August deadline to get to 85 players for the last two years.  Any way you slice it that is a lot of attrition.  For comparison's sake, Penn State has had 2 players leave their program over the last two years during this period of time.

2011 The March to 85 - Alabama

Player Position Reason for leaving after NSD
Glenn Harbin Defensive Line Decided to play baseball; Link
Demetrius Goode Running Back Transfer to North Alabama; Link
Petey Smith Linebacker Transfer to Holems CC; Link
Brandon Moore Defensive Lineman Transfer to East Mississippi Community College; Link
Corey Grant Running Back Transfer to Auburn; Link
Keiwone Malone Wide Receiver Transfer to Memphis; Link
Robby Green Defensive Back Transfer to California University of Pennsylvania ; Link
Darrington Sentimore Defensive Lineman Transfer to Mississippi Gulf Coast Community College Link
Arron Douglas Offensive Lineman Died during offseason; RIP, hate having to list him here.
Kerry Murphy Defensive Line Medical Hardship
Kendall Kelly Defensive Back Medical Hardship
Wes Neighbors Defensive Back Medical Hardship


2010 The March to 85 - Alabama

Player Position Reason for leaving after NSD
Terry Grant Running Back Scholarship not renewed
Travis Sikes Wide Receiver Scholarship not renewed
Rod Woodson Safety Scholarship not renewed
Star Jackson Quarterback Transfer, Georgia State Div 1AA.
Deion Belue Defensive Back Academically Ineligible; headed to JUCO
Alfy Hill Linebacker Academically Ineligible; future unknown
Taylor Pharr Offensive Lineman Medical Hardship
Milton Talbert Linebacker Medical Hardship
Darius McKeller Offensive Lineman Medical Hardship
Ronnie Carswell Wide Receiver Greyshirt
Wilson Love Defensive End Greyshirt


*Wilson and Love are still with the team, they grayshirted.  They left for 1 year but returned the following.

So does this end the 2011 March to 85?  Right now it looks like 10 scholarship players are gone since NSD with 2 more suspended indefinitely waiting to be "processed."  Regardless, despite Alabama not releasing official scholarships numbers, we are able to piece together a few bits of information that make the numbers a little clearer:

1. The number of players signed this year 22 + 2 grayshirt commitments from last year = 24

2. The number of players that left last year (3 JR to NFL + 8 SR to Graduation + 1 Pre-NSD Transfer) = 12


Click to enlarge; there are 14 guys on the list of players that left last year, 6 of which are listed SQ and there is no record of any of them in the Rivals database as ever being signed.

3. The number of scholarship players that have left since NSD (see above) = 12

When you add the number of players that have left since NSD to the number of players that left last year due to going to the NFL early or exhausting their eligibility you get 24.  That's pretty damn close to exactly the 24 they signed.

Saban did mention that that Alabama was not at a full 85 last year, which we still have a hard time understanding because 2 guys grayshirted because their wasn't enough room.  Regardless, let's say there was still room for 1 or 2 under the 85 limit last year.

There are only two possible explanations for the numbers:

1. Saban did not oversign: because when he signed 24 it took him to 85 (which if you remember on NSD when Saban told the media they signed what they had room for) and the 10 departures since NSD have created 10 openings, which have not been filled by walk-ons, and Alabama will go into the season with 73 scholarship players.

2. Saban did oversign: because with only 12 departing players on NSD and only a couple of open scholarships from last year there is no way he had room for 24 guys and it took X number of the 10 players leaving since NSD in order for him to get back down to 85.  If Saban did oversign, then this is a prime example of how the new "roster management rules" for oversigning in the SEC are ineffective.  Even with signing 24, which is 1 under the 25 enrollment limit, it is very possible that Alabama oversigned -- the only way they didn't is if they played last year with 73 scholarship players, which would mean the 12 under 85 from last year + the departure of 12 to the NFL and graduation would then justify the 24 they signed to get to 85.  Then in which case, with the 12 departures since NSD, Alabama would be at 73 going into this season.  Which in turn raises the question as to why 3 guys are being moved to medical hardship scholarships when there could be football scholarships that are left unused -- don't those guys deserve better for their sacrifice, especially when the room is there?

In summary, we might not have Saban's scholarship numbers, but we feel pretty confident that we have his number down pat by now.  This is the second year that we have been able to forecast the amount of attrition to take place after NSD almost to the exact number.  Last year we nailed it on the number, this year we said 11 and there has been 12 thus far.  Not too shabby considering we don't have his numbers.

The only person that can clear this up is Nick Saban and he has the perfect opportunity to do it tomorrow at SEC Media Days.  All he has to do is come clean on his scholarship numbers.

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Comments (147) Trackbacks (1)
  1. vesper
    July 22nd, 2011 - 08:14

    Petey Smith, Corey Grant, and Robby Green have all spoken as to why they transferred. Unlike James Jackson, they all left of their own volition.

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    • Bathel
      July 22nd, 2011 - 08:48

      and Goode graduated… wasn’t going to get playing time and decided to transfer to play his last year of eligablity. I think that would be considered legit.

      Kerry Murphy was one of the starter last year, I’d say his medical is legit.

      Robby Green was suspended last year and most believe it was drug testing related. Not surprised to see him removed this year. He was one of the key DB’s Prior to his removal, so I wouldn’t say he was run off.

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  2. Gary
    July 22nd, 2011 - 08:37

    Vesper – shut up! You are confusing things with facts. Facts have no here. You should know that by now.

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  3. Gary
    July 22nd, 2011 - 08:39

    Vesper – shut up! You are confusing things with facts. Facts have no place here. You should know that by now.

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  4. Gary
    July 22nd, 2011 - 08:53

    “Arron Douglas-Offensive Lineman – Died during offseason; RIP, hate having to list him here.”

    Josh, I might buy that if you were not so hypocritical and inaccurate about what you post here. If you actually bothered to verify your facts instead of spreading misinformation it might be believable. But you do not, unless of course it looks bad for the BigTen or OSU, then you run of and spend a week or two trying to disprove the negatives.

    Spreading rumors about some schools while defending others at all cost show a lack of integrity. So no, I do not believe for a second you feel anything for the Douglas family. Your track record is you will say or do whatever will help your agenda. So please do not us or the Douglas family with your feigned empathy.

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  5. Bathel
    July 22nd, 2011 - 09:03

    The only person that can clear this up is Nick Saban and he has the perfect opportunity to do it tomorrow at SEC Media Days. All he has to do is come clean on his scholarship numbers.

    To do every year to the NCAA… They have 85 scholarships or less, doesn’t seem like rocket science to me. Each scholarship is for 1 year. Each year they have 85 or less scholarships. You want to stop what you call oversigning…. they make the scholarship 4 years and not 1.

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  6. Catch 5
    July 22nd, 2011 - 09:35

    Congratulations Josh, you used a set of parameters (most of which were assumed) and fairly accurately (not exactly) guessed how much attrition Alabama incurred. And for two years in a row even! Wow, that is impressive indeed, I mean simple math can get confusing sometimes.

    On a completely different subject, I wonder if Nick Saban can accurately predict how much attrition he will incurr with a much better knowledge of the players on his team and how many are contemplating transfers? Is it too much to ask that he can do math too?

    Just what are you trying to get at here? Where is your accusation? Everybody knows Bama oversigns. The question is “is it done responsibly?” It has been shown here recently (begrudgingly admitted by yourself even) that OSU oversigned this year (by your standards, not the B10 standards). It has also been accused (by one of his players) that it was not done responsibly. Even though they only had a few leave, one has very damning accusations against the school, yet nothing but apologies from this site. Bama has many leave – all quotes saying nothing but praises for the Bama program – and we get this. Please just come out and say what your problem is. Please detail for us which of the departures was forced out. Show for us just what it is that is wrong with Alabama that it warrants such individual attention on this site (noone else warrants such a “March”).

    Of course, you may be just bragging about being able to do simple math. In that case, I congratulate you again.

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    • Bathel
      July 22nd, 2011 - 10:04

      You know, it’s a bit funny… this site started out with an idea and and view. As more and more light was shead on the issues, more and more knowledgeable people started posting here. As more and more light was brought onto this site it started to remove the vail of “helping” the athlete… and show how biased and one sided the blogger is. It started to reveal how poorly his ideas have been thought out and how poorly they would affect athlete’s if they were implemented.

      I think the people in the know understand the problems at hand with oversigning and are moving to impelment rules to help that situation out. However, it’s not what this site wants. The discussion isn’t about implementing the Big 10 rules… as I think most can see how poor a rule that is. The powers that be, are smart enough to not be lead by the whims of the media and understand the root cause of the issue isn’t oversigning, but the misleading of recruits. I have full confidence that they will find rules and ways to make this a much more fair agreement between recruits and the schools.

      I also think this site has just about run it’s course. Everyday it becomes more and more clear that it’s really a “hate” site and not a site that trying to move the decusion forward. For that, I’m sad… as this site had the potential to really spark some reform in a good way… but the tunnel vision of the creater won’t let go of it’s hate for Bama and Nick Saban… it’s just a sad site now.

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      • luke
        July 23rd, 2011 - 15:27

        You’re right. Clearly the over-signing defenders on this site are much smarter than the guys in charge of the B1G, whose rules against oversigning don’t actually help student athletes. I sure am glad you more “knowledgeable” people show it.

        Pay no attention to Mike Slive, SEC president, addressing some of these concerns at media days. Things like Multi year scholarships, raising the GPA requirement, etc. Or his pushing to cut down on the number of athletes signed. Surely the cut down to 25 from 28 wasn’t motivated at all by that, right?

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        • Gary
          July 23rd, 2011 - 17:13

          Well Luke lets look at it.

          First, I believe Bathel was talking about the owner of this site and his supporters, not BigTen officials, when he said more knowledgeable people were now shedding light on what is wrong with this site. Unless of course you are claiming Joshua, you or some other supporters are BigTen officials incognito. It is tough to argue with BigTen officials because they are not here and we really only THINK we know what the rules say. I say we THINK we know what the BigTen rules say because most, probably ALL, of us have never seen what the rules actually say, just what other people tell us they say.

          Secondly, the so called ills of oversigning according to this site are players being “cut,” abusing Medical exemptions, running players off, gray shirting etc. If the NCAA adopted what we THINK the BigTen rules are tomorrow it would not prevent ANY of those things.

          Adopting BigTen rules would change the timing of some of those things, but almost certainly not all of them, and certainly would not stop them.

          It does not take a genius to figure out that if the rules this site has promoted for so long won’t change much in terms of what this site list as ethical and moral concerns, then their is either a complete ignorance of the the rules and how they work or an ulterior motive, i.e. something like competitive advantage.

          Thirdly, their is a bias on this site that if a player is no longer with a team then there is some nefarious reason for it. It is exceedingly rare to see this site even consider a players dismissal or voluntary removal could be for legitimate reason, unless of course it is a BigTen team, which as we have seen Joshua will go out of his way in an attempt to absolve. If the goals here were really about the athlete then certain teams wouldn’t get a free pass. This only servers to reinforce the idea of an ulterior motive, i.e. competitive advantage.

          Some of us really do have concerns for the student athlete but also understand that needs to be some far reaching changes and balance between the interest of the student athlete, coaching staffs and institutional administrations. The arguments made here by the sites owner and supporter are so vacuous as to be transparently obvious that concern for the student athlete is nothing more than a cover for this sites real raison d’etre.

          So Bathel is correct, you are coming up short on any intellectual or moral high ground for your arguments. And thinking people are starting to refer to this site with a rapidly decrease frequency. Even Joshua comments less and less, preferring to incessantly tweet his mantra where real debate cannot take place.

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          • Bathel
            July 25th, 2011 - 07:48

            First, I believe Bathel was talking about the owner of this site and his supporters, not BigTen officials, when he said more knowledgeable people were now shedding light on what is wrong with this site.

            The post I made was three part… one that this site started out with a veil of helping the athlete, that veil was blow away when smart and informated people started to post here.

            Second, in dealing with oversigning (IE those that have any control over the issue like Mike Slive) are implemening rules to help out the athlete and not just blindly implementing the Big 10 rule. They understand how poor that rule is. However, this site still wants the Big 10 rule addopted across the board, when what they should be seeking is a way to even the playing field for everyone while trying to make it a good deal for the recruits and the school…

            Third, this site has become old and stale… it’s a dumping ground to bash Saban and the SEC. It doesn’t really push debate towards anything other than what the site created “wants” or believes. Unfortunately, what the creater wants and believes would be bad for recruits, so…. I’m glad Slive isn’t listening.

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          • Bathel
            July 25th, 2011 - 07:50

            And Yes, I think you put it a bit more clearer than I did… ;)

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          • luke
            July 25th, 2011 - 16:29

            Lets deal with all the ways you are wrong:

            First: The associate B1G commisioner came on and said what the B1G rules were. He went on and explained how they work. Whats going on is the oversigning defenders have demanded to see the rules themselves, because they apparently believe the B1G office is full of liars or whatnot.

            Second: You are misinterpreting the argument again, as usual. The goal is to REDUCE the amount of running students off, forced greyshirts, etc. You will probably never completely be ever to get rid of it, but you can make rules and regulations that actively discourage it. Putting security cameras in may not eliminate crime, but it can reduce it. similar analogy

            Third: There is a difference between 1 person leaving and multiple people leaving. We will never be able to get all the reasons do to privacy, concerns, etc. But if one program is consistently losing 5-6 more people than another, or even as a conference losing 6-8 more people than another, shouldn’t that be investigated to determine why? Does that mean EVERYONE there gets removed? No. But you can’t ignore the numbers, without giving satisfactory reason why.

            SO there are multiple reasons to explain each item. As for the oversigning defenders arguing about the intellectual/moral high ground, keep on believing that. Sadly, you all probably believe that.

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            • Gary
              July 25th, 2011 - 20:02

              All the ways I am wrong, that is rich.

              Firts. So we take the BigTen at its word, but not a head coach who, by the way, is reporting to the NCAA. So we are to assume the BigTen is honest (given its recent record that is funny), but the SEC is full of liars. In addition you want to make a big deal out of Saban not making certain documents/numbers public, but excuse the BigTen for not making rules public. Again the double standard is amazing.

              You constantly accuse me and others of twisting your words or misinterpreting you. Mainly because you make no sense or are clearly not reading what is said. You accuse me of misinterpreting your argument by saying “You will probably never completely be ever to get rid of it, but you can make rules and regulations that actively discourage it.” That would be a fitting argument if I had said the rule is worthless because it would effective but not be 100% effective. That is not what I said at all. SO who seems to be misinterpreting (or completing incapable of comprehending) who?

              I said the rule would NOT work because I does not prevent ANY of the things you list as wrong, it only changes the timeline, that is all it can do, because oversigning rules having nothing to do with if or how a player is released – ZERO. Do you not see the difference?

              Third, I did not mention numbers and what I said has nothing to do with numbers. The problem is the site (and you for defending it so adamantly) condemns virtually EVERY instance of a player leaving and SEC team as a result of some ethical violation by coaches while going way out of the way to justify the reason / or debunk his statements for virtually ANY player that leaves a BigTen team. Are you honestly trying to say that it is okay to ignore what you call exploitation because it is only 1 player as opposed to 5 or 6?

              By the way, what is it that you want to have investigated?

              Also, reasons have been given, just because you don’t like the reasons you label them unsatisfactory. Unsatisfactory to whom? Out of all the numbers you list as being exploited or abused by Saban, you have a quote from exactly 1 player that says he was unfairly treated. You have the same number of players from Ohio State. But you continue to decry the abuses of Saban with nothing more than a quote from 1 player and excuse OSU when a player actually says he was cut for oversigning.

              That is why I have the moral high ground. I have remained constant in my arguments, treat all parties the same. You may not like my position, but it is consistent, while yours seems to change with the wind. In fact I am starting to see a pattern here. When you have your rear end handed to you in an argument, you claim you misinterpreted, or words are twisted, or you attack others arguments from a point of view that they clearly did not state.

              If you think your arguments are even making sense at this point, let alone have the moral high ground, you are delusional.

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            • Catch 5
              July 25th, 2011 - 22:02

              First: The associate B1G commisioner came on and said what the B1G rules were.

              No, he did not.

              He went on and explained how they work.

              He did no such thing.

              Whats going on is the oversigning defenders have demanded to see the rules themselves, because they apparently believe the B1G is full of liars or whatnot.

              Talk about misrepresenting the other side’s stance. Noone has made the accusation that Hawley lied. But his statements did not line up with a lot of information that is out there, and we ask to see the rules so we can better understand why. For instance, it is well documented that OSU oversigned by the definition set by this site, yet Hawley has since confirmed they have not by the B10 definition. Do you not want to know why that is? He said that each team will be assessed at the end of the signing period before they know for sure if they oversigned. What does that mean exactly? He said that each team reports a budget that they cannot exceed (without permission), but what are the parameters of this budget? How are the schools allowed to come up with it? Are these not questions you would like answers to? Josh and yourself hold the B10 rules up as something everyone else should adopt, yet we don’t have all the information needed to accurately judge these rules.

              Just what is the reason everyone is up in arms then about Bama not releasing their numbers? Do you think they are full of liars and whatnot? I guess the NCAA just is too blind to see it when they get the numbers.

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            • Catch 5
              July 25th, 2011 - 22:32

              Third: There is a difference between 1 person leaving and multiple people leaving. We will never be able to get all the reasons do to privacy, concerns, etc. But if one program is consistently losing 5-6 more people than another, or even as a conference losing 6-8 more people than another, shouldn’t that be investigated to determine why? Does that mean EVERYONE there gets removed? No. But you can’t ignore the numbers, without giving satisfactory reason why.

              I’ll give you two explainations:
              1. Look at the recruiting classes. I’ve explained this before, but the number of 4 and 5 star recruits coming into the SEC teams far exceed that of any other conference. The SEC had 5 or 6 teams in the top 25 recruiting classess this year while the B10 only had a couple (I admittedly don’t have the data in front of me, and I’m on the droid tonight and don’t feel like looking it up on this). Now we all know that recruiting rankings don’t mean too much (though that top 25 is strikingly familiar) but the expectations of playing time and how they are treated like the star between a 3 star and 5 star is quite drastic. When a team has 10 5 star guys, not all of them will meet their hopes of fame and noteriety. It is not suprising, then that some of these may want a different environment before they have time to make the starting line up. That said, as I’ve pointed out many times, there has been no study showing that the SEC loses players at a faaster rate than anyone else.
              Which brings us to #2
              I know you’ve discounted percentages several times, though you have not adequately explained why. Demagraphics are all based on averages. I’ll give this example yet again: teams A and B are in the same conference and recruit in the same area. They are rivals and are similarly ranked every year – neither holds a significant advantage over the other. Every year like clockwork, both teams sign 20 players (because that is what they have room for). Consequently, each team loses 4 players every year to attrition. Eventually, the coach at team A decides to begin oversigning, so he starts signing 25 every year with the agreement that 5 will grayshirt if needed. Team A begins to lose 5 players while team B (who still only sign 20) still loses 4. Is the coach from team A kicking those 5 guys off the team or is he simply losing 20% just as he did before and just as team B?

              As for your investigation, is that not done already to some extent? I find it hard to believe that any player unhappy at Bama would have a hard tkime airing his grievance when he transfers. Josh himself has been trying to contact all of them, to get their story. Since we haven’t heard anything on that front, I can only imagine none have anything to say that Josh wants to hear. I could be wrong. Saban could be kicking players off the team at needed positions. Please feel free to investigate and let us know of your findings.

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              • ugk
                July 30th, 2011 - 08:10

                That example is no good. What if Team A signs 25 and happens to lose a below average amount of players one year? You can’t just assume you’re going to lose ‘your average’ every year.

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                • Bathel
                  July 30th, 2011 - 08:38

                  That’s why a coach approaches the recruits with a Greyshirt offer. They know their Average losses… but it’s still an unknow number. I believe Saban approaches several players and offers them Greyshirts, as has been shown in the media. If you have less than average leave the team by the start of the season, you end up greyshirting those players…

                  There is nothing wrong with Greyshirts as long as the player UNDERSTANDS and KNOWS what is being offered to him AND he is OK with taking the risk of delaying his enrollent. No one that I have seen on this board has or is promoting the misleading of recruits. I believe there are easy ways to implement rules that would make it clear as to what was being offered. These have been disscussed here before, but let me know if you’d like me to repost the ideas for your knowledge.

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                • Catch 5
                  July 30th, 2011 - 10:06

                  First, Bathel is correct, I quantified it with grayshirts. Secondly, this is purely hypothetical, and you totally ignored the point of the exercise. Is it reasonable or not to prepare for attrition that you know from first hand knowledge or from experience is coming? Is this not something that a good manager should do?

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                  • ugk
                    July 30th, 2011 - 15:04

                    I didn’t ignore it, which is why I stated you won’t lose your average “every year.” To answer your question I say yes it is reasonable to prepare for attrition. However, would you suggest Spurrier was acting as a good manager when he brought in 32 recruits last year and just yanked Sherman’s schollie a few weeks ago?

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                    • Gary
                      July 30th, 2011 - 17:16

                      It is not only about average. Coaches have an idea of who is unhappy with playing time (it is usually pretty obvious to people within the program). He also has a pretty good idea of injuries, their type and severity, as well as who is putting in the effort in rehab.Which are in trouble academically or legally. Who is home sick etc. We are not talking wild ass guess or basing strictly on average. It is an estimate, based on what you know in real time and what has happened in the past.

                      The Bryce Sherman argument is getting stale. It fails to support the argument of this site, and it hurts walk-ons. If Sherman is going to be the standard by which coaches are measured, then fewer walk-ons will get scholarships that are available.

        • Bathel
          July 25th, 2011 - 07:40

          Pay no attention to Mike Slive, SEC president, addressing some of these concerns at media days. Things like Multi year scholarships, raising the GPA requirement, etc. Or his pushing to cut down on the number of athletes signed. Surely the cut down to 25 from 28 wasn’t motivated at all by that, right?

          Re-read my post… I said the people that understand the problems with oversigning are implementing rules to help.. that would be Mike Slive addressing things like multi year scholarships… not just buying into the Big 10 rule blindly…. but thank you for helping make my point.

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  7. Tre
    July 22nd, 2011 - 11:05

    I believe Iowa has run off more players than any other school havent they? a Big 10 school at that.

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    • luke
      July 23rd, 2011 - 15:28

      Um… where did you get that information?

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      • Tre
        July 25th, 2011 - 09:50

        look it up in Rivals. Over the past 10 years, they average about 22.5 recruits a year. accounting for redshirts (because i hear that except in rare cases, Iowa practically redshirts everyone) they would have a 5 year total of players at over 100. Since they cant have more than 85, something has to be happening to these players. not once in the past 10 years has Iowa had less than 20 commits.

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        • ugk
          July 30th, 2011 - 08:28

          I bet I know what happens to some of those players, and its called graduation. I also know how many times Iowa has been over 85 after NSD. Zero. Perhaps they are not as good at ‘forecasting’ attrition rates as other schools since they are regularly doling out scholarships to two star walk-ons.

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          • ugk
            July 30th, 2011 - 08:32

            I also believe Alabama’s five year total of players is slightly over 100 as well, 134.

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            • BetterRED
              August 2nd, 2011 - 13:26

              A little over 100 is WAY different than 134 when talking about a human being. Saban had an addition oversigned class than Iowa in the same time frame.

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              • Gary
                August 3rd, 2011 - 01:11

                Way different? That is the problem with raw numbers and how people use them. I did a quick and dirty analysis of those two schools. I am not promising the numbers are perfect, but they are reasonably accurate.

                First 114 is Iowa’s number versus 134 – dif 20
                For those classes. 3 of Alabama’s 134 are duplicates (signed, went CC and signed again) 1 for Iowa. Diff 18
                Four signees for Bama choose Baseball over FB, I could not find any for Iowa (though they may had some, there was not much press if they did) Diff 14
                One more SA did not play for Bama, (1 death). Dif 13

                I did not remove any Non Qualifiers from the list, except Hill. So regardless of their current status with either team, if they signed a NLI I counted them.

                Bama signed 9 Jucos, Iowa 2. These players are on Scholarship usually 2 years, sometimes 3.

                Finally, from the last 5 classes Bama has lost 5 players that left early for the NFL, Iowa 1.

                I ran some numbers in order to get a better, albeit rough, idea of how much REAL difference there is between these two teams.

                Every kid that signed a NLI was counted as a 5 yr. scholarship, so Bama does not get credit for “running players off.” Every player counts a 5 years even if they left the school after one year. That way “running off” players could not be used as an excuse for the numbers. But they are not penalized for players that come in as Juco or left for NFL or baseball.

                The only exceptions are to 5 years are:
                - Removed double signers (doesn’t make sense to count them twice)
                - Removed players never counted for reasons other than academics (i.e. baseball, death)
                - Juco player counted actual years played (first year Juco’s given 2 yr. value)
                - Left early for draft – counted actual years played

                Bama had 588 scholarship years, for an average of 23.52 scholarships per year.

                Iowa had 557 scholarship years, average 22.28 scholarship years. A difference of 6.2 scholarship for entire 5 years.

                So what’s the point? The raw numbers show a that these two teams are WAY different, but they are not. That is ignored because it suits your argument, even if it does not reflect reality.

                The RAW numbers are used because they are easy to make an argument with and don’t require much thought. They are used to 20 more players signed over 5 years indicates Bama runs players off in huge numbers, that is why the numbers are do frequently used by anti-oversigners. But those raw numbers not reflect double signers, those that choose other sports, it counts JUCO just like initial counters, the numbers to not account for those that leave early.

                Are my numbers perfect, almost certainly not, but they are accurate enough to debunk the idea that there is a huge difference in what these two teams sign for the simple reason Bama “runs” players off. If Bama runs off players, big if, then Iowa is just as guilty, because 6 players over 5 years is not WAY different.

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                • Catch 5
                  August 3rd, 2011 - 07:08

                  Very nice Gary. The only flaw I find with that is the automatic 5 year. I understand why, as it makes it much easier and quicker to analyze, but it should be pointed out that over the last few years, Bama has has several players play as true freshmen, using far less redshirts, while Iowa is well-known for their almost mandatory use of them. I expect that if you removed the years from these non-redshirt players, Bama has used less scholarships that Iowa.

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                  • Gary
                    August 3rd, 2011 - 10:19

                    Thank you.

                    And you are correct about the flaw, but I did it for 3 reasons.
                    1. It would have taken a lot longer to research, I did not want to spend the time.
                    2. Coaches have control over red shirting and I wanted to eliminate what coaches control from the equation. Grey shirting would have a similar effect of lowering Bama’s numbers as well.
                    3. I wanted to remove as much of the argument that would be biased in favor of Bama as possible. Since the of their argument is that Bama has a “much higher attrition rate” because Saban “runs them off” and they are relying on raw numbers for that argument. I wanted to show that raw numbers are misleading and when you take out attrition that Saban CANNOT control, that the attrition rate is not significantly different.

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                    • Catch 5
                      August 3rd, 2011 - 14:01

                      I agree with what you did, and used similar criteria in a similar analysis I did back in the spring. Here is where I posted it:
                      http://oversigning.com/testing/index.php/2011/05/03/bruce-feldman-talks-oversigning/#comment-9216

                      Read that and let me know what you think. I tried to analyize the same subject, but I looked at the 2008 recruiting class and who was no longer on the team.

                    • ugk
                      August 4th, 2011 - 08:55

                      Nice analysis. Looking long term makes the issue a little more complicated and I used Bama’s long term number in response to Tre’s numbers. To add to your numbers, Iowa has had 4 guys leave early from 2007-2011.

                      Bulaga, Spievey, Shonn Greene, Tyler Sash

                    • Gary
                      August 4th, 2011 - 10:11

                      Thanks ugk, I did miss Bryan Bulaga, but Amari Spivey and Shonn Greene where in recruiting classes prior to 2007.

                      I should have made that more clear. These are the recruiting classes only, not the entire roster from those years. In order to view who left and why you need to go back to their first year and include each year a player in that recruiting class.

  8. Jon
    July 22nd, 2011 - 11:48

    Angry Southerners. LOL

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  9. spqr2008
    July 22nd, 2011 - 14:53

    Sherman should have gone west. The End

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    • Catch 5
      July 22nd, 2011 - 15:00

      Brilliant commentary. Thanks for adding to the discussion with your intelligent thoughts, I’m sure we are all better people due to your enlightened insights.

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    • Gary
      July 22nd, 2011 - 17:38

      Well he sort of did do just that. Wilson’s Raiders, part of Thomas’ Army, who were inspired by and some say directed by Sherman, marched through Alabama and in one of many raids burned the University of Alabama Campus. Attacking the pre-teen cadets that defend it.

      So not only was your comment snide but technically inaccurate as well. Thanks for maintaining the intellectual and moral standards we have come to expect from this site.

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  10. BetterRED
    July 23rd, 2011 - 11:39

    Just 10 so far? It is merely a coincidence Saban always makes the number right before the August 1st deadline. Oversigning and purging the roster is what it is, and these numbers just prove it.

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    • Gary
      July 23rd, 2011 - 15:16

      Prove what exactly?

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    • Catch 5
      July 23rd, 2011 - 18:32

      Really? How about my question above? Could it not simply be that Saban knew before NSD how many kids were contemplating transfering, and based on his experience as a coach, accurately estimate how many extra he would have room for? How is this such a difficult concept? How does that prove anything?

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      • Gary
        July 23rd, 2011 - 19:17

        An $8 and hour line cook at Wendy’s is taught to accurately estimate how many burgers to have on the grill as people walk through the door. Do we some how think a coach making somewhat more than that can’t at least come close in estimating how many he will have scholarships he will have available?

        If he misses by a couple he can gray shirt, if misses the other way, a walk-on gets a free ride for a year. He knows who is banged up, he has a pretty good idea who is not happy with playing time and he knows who keeps violating the rules. In fact a good coach who was in touch with his players would have a really good idea of those things.

        But absent any proof you all declare Saban and other SEC coaches of cheating or being unethical or immoral or all of the above.

        Should the rest of the country assume that because OSU was cheating last year that so were Wisconsin and Michigan State? I am not ready to buy in to that idea, but then again I am a pretty reasonable guy. Funny, because so many fans accuse the SEC fan base of being blinded by football. Seems the BinTen has us beat there. I guess that’s a good thing, then at least there is one place the BigTen out performs the SEC. ;)

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        • Chuck
          July 24th, 2011 - 07:27

          Yes – Saban is a genius. Here’s how he does the math… 4 too many 5 stars coming in – 4 medical hardships about to happen.

          There is no defense for this nonsense. Auburn signed 119 kids over the last 4 years to make their 85 man roster. Another genius SEC coach I guess.

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        • BetterRED
          July 24th, 2011 - 13:37

          …..and Saban with about 12 other coaches in the nation are the only ones with enough coaching experience to estimate out of 119 total schools? Its possible, not likely! It is pretty clear there is no way Saban would have known 10 kids may transfer and if he did estimate 10, why is the number so high?

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          • Gary
            July 24th, 2011 - 16:41

            How many active coaches have what it takes to lead their teams to national titles? Six, seven, maybe eight? SO I would say there are some coaches better than others at figuring out how to run a team.

            With all this talk of oversigning and Saban being a bad guy for doing so you all neglect to point out that a number of Universities are well under the limit. Both Florida and Auburn will be double digits under the limit. North Carolina was a couple of years ago. And those are just the ones off the top of my head. So clearly teams are loosing players not just cutting them. Saban manages his team and like any smart manager accounts for this attrition. If he is off then he can gray shirt. Or do you maintain that coaches that are so far under the limit just so stupid they cut players with no means to replace them?

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            • ugk
              July 30th, 2011 - 08:43

              Auburn has signed 143 players over the last five seasons and they’re going to be double digits under the limit? UNC was under the limit a few years ago because Butch Davis wasn’t there. Florida is under the limit b/c they’ve publicly stated they are against oversigning. Furthermore, I don’t see what on-field success has to do with roster management forecasting. If anything the latter aides the former, not the other way around.

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              • Catch 5
                July 30th, 2011 - 09:41

                So you’re pointing out that other teams have similar attrition to Alabama, yet suffer because of it instead of bringing in enough kids to make up for it. This doesn’t do much to promote the “Bama kicks players off their team because of oversigning” argument. So what exactly is your point here?

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                • ugk
                  July 30th, 2011 - 15:14

                  I think I misinterpreted Gary’s statements. Anyhow, how is it possible for Auburn to be that far under when they’re bringing in 28 a year?

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                  • Gary
                    July 30th, 2011 - 17:30

                    That is the problem of look solely at the raw numbers. Yes, it makes the argument that oversigning is unethical sound better if the person listening does not bother to understand the issue. One reason I think this debate has gotten so much traction, raw numbers sound bad, but once you start looking at it, the numbers begin to make sense.

                    TO answer your question there are several factors.
                    - some did not qualify and never enrolled.
                    - some did not qualify and sign a NLI with another class (so they are counted twice)
                    - some are JUCO so they are only there 2 years (or less) so counting them on a 4 or 5 year scale is misleading
                    - some graduated or left early for the NFL
                    - some where injured and no longer play
                    - some flunked out, some where arrested
                    - some decided they no longer wanted to play ball.

                    The reasons are numerous, but it really do not matter. This site argues that oversigning is the cause of players being “cut.” But there are more and better arguments that oversigning is the result of attrition, but that does not fit the agenda of this site.

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                    • luke
                      July 30th, 2011 - 21:22

                      The numbers don’t quite add up. You have several of the same factors at other schools. Comparatively speaking, none of the problems you listed are unique to SEC schools.

                      Those darn pesky numbers

                    • Catch 5
                      July 30th, 2011 - 23:32

                      Yes, Luke those same factors hurt most schools. And while I have only looked at one recruiting class from only two conferences, there is little to no difference between attrition at schools that oversign and those that don’t. Perhaps there will be one now that summer is over, I’ll let you know after I adjust for summer losses.

                      You infer that oversigning schools lose more. Just what pesky numbers are you refering to? If you have a better study than what I have done to date, please link it, I’ve been looking and asking for one for some time.

              • Gary
                July 30th, 2011 - 17:04

                That is correct, Auburn had just over 50 on scholarship including 3 that enrolled early. UNC was under 85 two years ago, Butch Davis had three recruiting classes under his belt at that point. Florida, precisely they do not oversign and are a dozen scholarships under the maximum. The point being is that schools loose players through attrition, just like Florida. Other teams manage to that number, but this site and its supporters do not care about the truth of why, just that they can use it to their benefit. It is never mentioned that teams like Florida are so far under the limit, because it is counter to their argument that oversigning CAUSES players to leave a team.

                I didn’t say anything about on field success. But clearly others do, this site talks about it being a competitive advantage fairly frequently. I mentioned national titles because the number of coaches that are capable of doing it are few and far between. BetterRed asked why only 12 are able to forecast. I simply asked why only 6-7 have been able to coach a National Champion. The answer is simple, some coaches are better at managing all aspects of a program than others.

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                • BetterRED
                  August 2nd, 2011 - 13:42

                  some are better at being unethical and getting rid of dead weight. The players who do everything right and dont contribute they get rid of and bring in the next couple 4 and 5 stars after Saban/miles/Petrino have already offered the other kids a scholarship and place on the team. Its pretty obvious through Saban because of the numbers posted and the way higher attrition he consistently has.

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                  • Gary
                    August 3rd, 2011 - 01:55

                    See my previous post on Iowa. When you boil down the attrition rate based on what the coach can control, then the attrition rate gap shrinks significantly. You defend Iowa as being WAY different from Bama, but 6 scholarships over 5 years is hardly “way higher attrition” rate.

                    It is easy to talk about ethics with veiled accusations, but you have no proof, just supposition, much of which is based on little or no evidence a bad data.

                    Point to something specific with some real evidence that a wrong was done and I can support that. I have seen virtually none of that around here.

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          • Catch 5
            July 24th, 2011 - 18:10

            If Bama and those 12 other teams (oversigning is much more previlant than that, see Vesper’s links mostly in the oversigning cup thread) were the only teams that suffered attrition then you would have something. If they suffered attrition rates much higher than teams that don’t oversign, perhaps. If their transfers said they were treated unfairlyh with regularity, you would have something more than shadow to point at. As it stands, pretty much all teams suffer attrition, noone has shown that oversigning teams suffer more than others, and every transfer this year from Bama has had nothing but glowing things to say about the program. Which one was forced out this year? Who has been lied to or otherwise treated unfairly?

            Just because some schools don’t take advantage of it doesn’t mean they don’t know some are leaving. It is a different management style than some prefer, but it dosent mean those that use it are necissarily wrong simply because they do.

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          • SoccerMike
            July 24th, 2011 - 22:30

            I only see 4 players on that list that transferred, not 10. I know you like to take everything Joshua says as the Gospel but maybe you should do some research on your own and find out info and not relay Joshua’s garbage. I linked on here where all 4 of those players were rumored by people in the know back in November they were transferring. I even linked post on an Auburn site that talked about it in December. Long before NSD.

            All 3 medical hardships were players that were injured during the season or before. Kelly has never player a down at UA since he left HS. BTW his first year at UA was a medical redshirt because he was still recovering from a broken leg in the senior season. So he has been hurt for 3 years. The other 2 have battled injuries for the past 2 years. Again research before you post.

            Next you are going to tell me that Nebraska would keep a player the NCAA has suspended for 2 years now. Because Green was suspended by the NCAA not Saban. But again that would require you to research.

            Harbin went to play baseball on scholarship and Douglas died. So now that we have discussed 10 players that look to be very legit reasons for no longer being on the roster long before NSD, except Douglas that leaves 2 who got in trouble. I guess players do not get in trouble at Nebraska or in the Big 10. By the way neither were kicked off the team just suspended. Big difference.

            Also that lists has 12 names on it and I am assuming that Joshua is referring to BJ Scott who transferrend out before NSD. See instead of researching you assume the reason UA has lost those 12 players is to make room for 12 oversigned. News flash just because Joshua writes it does not make it the truth. Because he alsos fails to mention Mike Marrow who tranferred out in September that was still a counter for the 85 roster for 2012. A family death made him want to move closer to home.

            So yes 12 have left and we knew 8 before NSD were a good possibility. But yet UA had 13 spots open. So much for an exact march to a certian number. The only thing Joshua has provided is that UA will only be at 84 scholarships entering the season.

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            • BetterRED
              July 25th, 2011 - 12:40

              So Alabama should have a total of 75-73 scholarship players for this year due to the attrition like any other team would. Oversigning and recklessly offering scholarship allow Alabama to remain at 85 or 85 + greyshirts every year, even with an abnormal amount of attrition.

              Mike Marrow will not count toward the 85 man scholarship because he is actually now counting toward Nebraska’s 85 man scholarship list. Mike Marrow left the team at the start of 2010 football season from Alabama.

              http://nebraska.statepaper.com/vnews/display.v/ART/4d725af633b0d

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              • SoccerMike
                July 25th, 2011 - 13:26

                I meant Marrow counted against the 2010-11 class for 85. When he left in September it would atleast move us to 84 counters.

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                  • BetterRED
                    August 2nd, 2011 - 13:52

                    Maybe Saban needs to run a tigher program so his players quite getting in trouble OR he needs to do better research on some of the players about their behavior before recruiting them.

                    Its pretty simple, Alabama signs near the top (in numbers) more over a period of time so therefor they have more attrition because they remain right at the 85 man limit.

                    When an athlete transfers it is with the help of his current head coach. Saban tends to help athletes transfer to North Alabama very frequently, do you think if they athlete speaks negatively of Saban, there might be some backlash from North Alabama? I mean Saban is recommending this athlete join a Division II school to help them win. If Saban recruits a kid he thinks is good enough for Alabama but doesnt pan out and he drops all the way to Division II, maybe Saban should have done some better homework because that is quite a drop off.

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                    • vesper
                      August 2nd, 2011 - 20:52

                      Saban tends to help athletes transfer to North Alabama very frequently

                      Very frequently? Really? On what do you base that claim? I’m aware of 3 scholarship players who transferred from Alabama to North Alabama in the 5 years that Saban has been head coach:

                      -Brandon Fanney (’09): started 14 games the previous year and was 3rd on the team in tackles
                      -Rod Woodson (’10): was in a 2-man battle for a starting safety spot at the time of his transfer
                      -Demetrius Goode (’11): spent 4 years at Alabama and earned his degree before transferring

                      Here is North Alabama’s football roster from last season: http://www.roarlions.com/Lion_Sports/Football/Current_Season/roster.htm

                      There are 3 players listed as having transferred from Alabama (2 were walk-on’s) compared to 6 from Florida State.

                      Let’s take a look at a midwestern school for comparison. Here’s the current roster of FCS Illinois State University:
                      http://www.goredbirds.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/ilsu-m-footbl-mtt.html

                      I count 4 transfers from Wisconsin, 3 from Illinois, 2 from Michigan State, 1 from Indiana, 1 from Minnesota. And that’s just the current roster; I’m sure there’d be many more if I went back 5 years.

                      Maybe the Big Ten coaches should have done some better homework. What do you think?

                    • Gary
                      August 3rd, 2011 - 02:13

                      You really do need to do some research before you write this stuff. Your clearly have no basis in fact for most of your arguments.

                      Saban needs to run a tighter program? Look around the country, his kids are not getting in trouble like other schools. His program is tough and discipline is strict. Some kids do not do well in that situation.

                      Bama has only had a few kids transfer to UNA.

                      Terry Bowden has no love loss for Bama or Saban, I seriously doubt what his kids say about Bama matters to him. In fact, if kids are getting treated so badly at Bama it would seem Bowden could win some players over by making a big deal out of it. And by the way, UNA is petitioning to move to Div 1, so transfers are going to be restricted.

                      SA’s do not need Saban’s help to transfer.

                      The drop to DII is about residency rules, not talent.

                      You have managed to prove you hate Saban and that is about it.

              • Gary
                July 25th, 2011 - 23:04

                Just FYI, he may not count against your 85. Many assume that a transfer automatically counts, but that is not how the rule reads. If he is put on scholarship he counts, if not he does not.

                The fact he may have been Nebraska recruited athlete at one point (prior to signing NLI at previous school) does not mean he is still.

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              • Catch 5
                July 30th, 2011 - 10:01

                Recklessly offering scholarships? You can say this about South Carolina who offered too many scholarships than they could accept (due to SEC rules, they had room). You could maybe say it about LSU who didn’t get enough grayshirt agreements up front to cover if everyone qualified. There have been no instances of anything like this at Alabama. In fact, their recruits have been singled out as being well informed about what the scholarshiip is for, and never has a grayshirt recipient said that he didn’t know about it when he signed.

                Furthermore, how is it reckless to prepare for something that you know is coming? Is that not usually considered responible? I mean, if you are having a dinner party, do you not go out and buy more food than you usually do that week? The question is, “is Saban preparing for attrition that he knows about, or making it happen?” As others have pointed out in this discussion, most of these departures were known to be in the works to those who frequent message boards, do you not give Saban enoughn credit to at least be as informed about his players as these? Surely you aren’t that dense.

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                • BetterRED
                  August 2nd, 2011 - 13:57

                  Does Saban know it is coming because he is the engine behind it? I guess there is no possible way Saban calls an athlete in his office and tells him to transfer? Then places a pretty good athlete at Division II North Alabama! That is quite a drop off from being a scholarship athlete at Alabama to Division II North Alabama, isnt it? That is where reckless scholarship offers and oversigning will get you, Saban/Miles/Nutt/Petrino/etc.

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                  • Catch 5
                    August 2nd, 2011 - 23:14

                    Maybe someone like Goode would like to be able to play at his new school since he only has one year of eligibility remaining, and a transfer to Div I team would require him to sit out a year. Speaking of Goode, how in the world did he last 4 years in the system on scholarship (and graduate) without being a major contributor? I mean, if Saban has been kicking starters and other players at needed positions, why didn’t he tell Goode, who was never above 4th string, to transfer a long time ago?

                    In an earlier response, you said the following:

                    It’ss pretty simple, Alabama signs near the top (in numbers) more over a period of time so therefor they have more attrition because they remain right at the 85 man limit.

                    How do you reach that conclusion? Consider my question asked to Luke earlier:

                    . Teams A and B are in the same conference and recruit in the same area. They are rivals and are similarly ranked every year –neither holds a significant advantage over the other. Every year like clockwork, both teams sign 20 players (because that is what they have room for). Consequently, each team loses 4 players every year to attrition. Eventually, the coach at team A decides to begin oversigning, so he starts signing 25 every year with the agreement that 5 will grayshirt if needed. Team A begins to lose 5 players while team B (who still only sign 20) still loses 4. Is the coach from team A kicking those 5 guys off the team or is he simply losing 20% just as he did before and just as team B?

                    so we see that a team that signs more will likely have more departures, while not necessarily having a higher attrition rate. Have you come across data that shows Bama suffers more attrition than everyone else? I would like to see it as the study I did had them right at the average rate of the B10 conference. So if Bama is kicking off players because of oversigning, why are the B10 schools doing it?

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                  • Gary
                    August 3rd, 2011 - 02:19

                    Sure it is possible Saban tells them to transfer. Most of us will admit that. But the problem is that almost every argument here is that is the only way people believe kids leave his program, and none have any proof of that.

                    Are you willing to believe that Saban may be 100% straight up with how he treats his players?

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                    • Bathel
                      August 3rd, 2011 - 07:32

                      Wouldn’t it be part of Saban’s Job and ETHICAL for him to advise a kid to transfer if he feels that kid will never see the field?

                      I would find it very UNETHICAL for a coach to leave a kid hanging on the bench without talking to him about his options of transfer…

                    • Gary
                      August 3rd, 2011 - 10:33

                      My reply is about being more open minded and circumspect of accusations. I think it is certainly ethical for a coach to sit down with players and discuss their future an options.

                      Most of the defenders of this site presume guilt with no evidence for certain programs, while vociferously defending other programs, even when there is more compelling evidence against that program.

                      The point being, in some peoples eyes a program is guilty of being unethical, corrupt and wrong for no other reason than the name of the program or coach. And others are pure for same baseless reasoning.

                      I am willing to be open minded to evidence, but not baseless allegations. If someone wants to accuse a program/coach of unethical behavior then bring real proof or go home.

                    • BetterRED
                      August 3rd, 2011 - 21:40

                      are you willing to believe Saban is NOT 100% strait up with his players?

                    • Catch 5
                      August 3rd, 2011 - 21:56

                      Sure. Can you show a pattern of doing so? All I can find is evidence to the contrary. I will not jump to that conclusion based on distorted information provided by biased people with some ax to grind. Neither would I be pursuaded by a couple of disgruntled players over the course of his tenure. If any coach misleads his recruits with any regularity, it is going to get back to the high schools and other players. Saban’s recruiting record does not point to this.

                    • Gary
                      August 3rd, 2011 - 22:16

                      Sure, anything is possible. But I will not believe it just because you say is so.

                      If you want me to believe it then prove it.

  11. Little Joe
    July 24th, 2011 - 11:18

    I think it pleases me to know that Josh spends an absurd amount of time trying to toot his own horn re Bama and their schollies, only to prove exactly nothing. What a colossal waste of time. WTG Josh.

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    • In the Middle (Tar Heel)
      July 25th, 2011 - 09:28

      LJ, I don’t think you give Agent J enough credit. He’s made “oversigning” such a part of the OSU lexicon that its own players now accuse the coaches of the crime — unlike anyone on the annual March to 85 lists.

      Hysterical.

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      • ugk
        July 30th, 2011 - 15:37

        Does anyone know what number Bama is sitting on right now?

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        • Gary
          July 30th, 2011 - 17:06

          Since July 1 was the reporting deadline then I would say 85. If not they have an issue with the NCAA.

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          • ugk
            July 30th, 2011 - 23:11

            So if Alabama is indeed sitting on 85, and Saban being the good manager that he is recruited 11 over b/c he knew that 11 would leave between NSD and July 1, what was he doing courting Clowney well after NSD?

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            • Catch 5
              July 30th, 2011 - 23:21

              He said at the time that they had room for one or two more. I take that as meaning he had enough guys willing to grayshirt to allow for someone like Clowney. Not really that difficult of a concept.

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              • ugk
                July 30th, 2011 - 23:53

                Not really a difficult concept to assume that’s not what he meant either. It’s not like Saban is transparent with the media concerning the issue.

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                • Bathel
                  July 31st, 2011 - 06:39

                  Why is it that you expect and demand him to be transparent with the media? There is no rule for this, nor is there a need for it. He is transparent with the NCAA, which is the requirement.

                  I don’t really think he gives a rat’s ass about most of the media. Some coaches and/or schools do care so they bend over backwards to pamper the media… but it’s not his style, and I have no issues with that.

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                  • BetterRED
                    August 2nd, 2011 - 14:02

                    good defense Bathel, I think you have said that many times before.

                    he did not have room because he was already 11 over. No kid would be willing to greyshirt because some 5 star kid who was added to the class late took his scholarship. Come on dude, that is just crazy talk.

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                    • Bathel
                      August 2nd, 2011 - 15:22

                      Define room? If I have 11 spots this class and 20 spots next class and I can get 9 kids in the current class to accept greyshirts…. Can’t I sign 20 kids in this current class…

                      Just because the Big 10 doesn’t allow it, doesn’t mean it’s unethical. It’s perfectly ethical IF the kids know what is being offered and they are willing to accept it. It’s perfectly LEGAL by NCAA rules.

                      There is nothing new or unusual about a coach not giving up infrormation to the media either… I don’t care if Alabama releases the scholarship info or not, nor would I are if OSU did or didn’t. Personallly, I don’t really give a rats ass about the whole OSU/NCAA sanctions… it’s between the NCAA and OSU, not me nor the media. Whatever they decide to do is fine with me, regardless as to how unjust it may seem to the media and to ME The Alabama fan… it is what it is, and that’s fine.

                    • Bathel
                      August 2nd, 2011 - 15:26

                      BTW, no one is saying these greyshirts were FORCED on any of the kids. They have the option of telling the staff that they won’t accept a greyshirt and if the coaching staff doesn’t want to offer them a current year offer, they are going to sign somewhere else. It happend this year to at least one Alabama recruit who did just that…

                      If I was being recruited, I would gladdly accept a greyshirt offer from Alabama over any other school… because I’m a fan and grew up a fan my whole life. I would be happy to wait a year to get my chance. Others may not feel that way and they always have the option to go somewere else.

                    • Catch 5
                      August 2nd, 2011 - 22:46

                      “Some 5 star kid who was addded to the class late…”
                      Could you explain this? It seems like you are suggesting that the coaches suddenly decided to offer a 5 star recruit just before NSD without having recruited him previously. The notion that a highly sought-after recruit would consider a new school that late is preposterous, so there is surely a different point you were making here.

                    • BetterRED
                      August 3rd, 2011 - 17:47

                      This adds to all pro-oversigners argument about kids getting a great opportunity in a poverty area. If these kids you guys always suggest come from such poverty, how in the world can Saban offer so many greyshirts before hand? Your argument about getting these kids out of poverty and giving an opportunity, this poverty you speak of, how can they afford to pay for their first year of college?????

                    • Catch 5
                      August 3rd, 2011 - 18:48

                      First off, it is not a full year, it is really one semester. While I don’t know all the details of a grayshirt, it is my understanding that the kid can wait to enroll (thus the tern “delayed enrollment”). Secondly, noone said that every recruit is hapless. Perhaps Saban takes into account players that have such means to provide one semester at partial enrollment in choosing who to offer grayshirts to. One of the recent grayshirts, Wilson, comes from Mountain Brook, one of the highest per capita income zip codes in America. Just saying.

                • Catch 5
                  July 31st, 2011 - 08:12

                  I agree – if you are not familiar with Saban and the way he has run his programs. To assume what you suggest is to ignore past patterns and results.

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                  • ugk
                    July 31st, 2011 - 18:31

                    Where did I say I expect and demand him to be transparent with the media? What I’m suggesting is that when you are not transparent that questions will arise. Apparently the great manager knows six months in advance the exact number of kids that will be leaving his program, but he’s never really sure how many kids he has on schollie.

                    I am familiar with Saban, the way he runs his programs, and think he’s the best coach in the nation. However, to assume that his transparency with the NCAA means he may or may not be bending the rules may be slightly ignorant b/c the NCAA enforcement is a joke. Anyone watching the Ohio State saga can attest to that.

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                    • HeadScratcher
                      August 1st, 2011 - 15:42

                      Yes, and as we know, most of the pro-oversigning people on this site just happen to be OSU fans. Go figure.

                      If you make your way over to the CFN Scout Hineygate forum, you will see a FORTY-FIVE page thread of OSU fans (with a few Auburn fans sprinkled in) trying to get the NCAA to crank up their investigation of the idiot in T-Town that owns the men’s store where some Tide players have signed memorabilia.

                      The obsession OSU fans have with trying to bring Bama down apparently has no bounds.

  12. Gary
    July 30th, 2011 - 23:33

    Quote: luke
    July 30th, 2011 – 21:22

    The numbers don’t quite add up. You have several of the same factors at other schools. Comparatively speaking, none of the problems you listed are unique to SEC schools.

    Those darn pesky numbers

    ———————————-
    Thanks Luke, you just help prove what most of us say about this site, it is not about oversigning versus not oversigning, it is an anti SEC site. Thanks for verifying that about this site and yourself.

    Because those pesky numbers are about Florida, which this site holds on high for not oversigning. Florida does it “right” and has no need to “cut” players according to you guys, but they are still well below 85. How could that happen if they are the good guys that don’t cut players. Oh, yeah, like we have been saying, it is natural attrition.

    The other numbers are about Auburn who oversigns but is well below the NCAA 85 limit. But they oversign so they have to cut players, but I guess they are just so incompetent that they must have “cut” too many.

    “Those darn pesky numbers,” that is the best you got? Lol. But I guess that reply is easier than coming up with one that would hold up to debate. I feel like I am arguing with a grade school kids.

    ( REPLY )
    • luke
      August 2nd, 2011 - 21:10

      Um, what? I am saying that your rationale for the SEC signing many more players is not valid.

      Some players are lost due to attrition. But if a conference consistently has a lot more players lost, do you not feel like investigating? No one is arguing against attrition. But the use of greyshirting is a lot more prevalent in the SEC than the other BCS conferences.

      So go ahead, and explain how the SEC has an average of almost 3 more than the B1G, the Pac12, and the ACC. I’ll be waiting.

      Unless you are still spending time arguing with grade school kids.

      ( REPLY )
      • Catch 5
        August 2nd, 2011 - 23:31

        Its just like I have said a couple of times now with the example of teams A and B. Team B in my scenario signs 5 more players than team A. Now. As to your numbers, where do you get them? How do you get 3 more than the other conferences? I’m not disputing, but would like to know the data set and other parameters.

        ( REPLY )
      • Gary
        August 3rd, 2011 - 02:36

        No, you made a smart a@@ comment. I never said those where unique to the SEC.

        Look at the Iowa / Bama numbers I posted. Raw numbers show Bama has 4 more per year than Iowa.

        Yet when you break the numbers down it is 6 over 5 years, barely over 1 per year.

        ( REPLY )
      • Luke
        August 3rd, 2011 - 12:31

        Data is taken from sports illustrated. figure that can be considered an unbiased item.

        http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/andy_staples/01/24/oversigning-data/index.html

        When you break the numbers down, across the conference, it yields
        SEC : 25.72
        BIG12 : 24.96
        ACC : 22.33
        PAC12: 22.93
        B1G : 22.12

        As you can see, the SEC is by far and above everyone else. The numbers would be even worse it it weren’t for vandy, georgia, and FLA, all who have stated they are against the greyshirt and switch tactic. Please inform as to why there is a discrepancy. Thats at least 3 more per class.

        ( REPLY )
        • Luke
          August 3rd, 2011 - 12:37

          Technically, those SEC numbers are also including FLA, vandy, and Georgia, who have all publicly stated they are against oversigning. Ironically, those schools also help to bring the SEC average down. If you take them out, the average jumps up by 1.

          ( REPLY )
          • Catch 5
            August 3rd, 2011 - 14:13

            As many of us have said on numerous occasions, comparing LOIs is not an accurate comparison for what you are tring to do. How about you count actual bodies that actually make it on campus.

            ( REPLY )
            • BetterRED
              August 3rd, 2011 - 17:49

              No because alot of these SEC coaches offer kids who they know will not make it so they can sign and place.

              ( REPLY )
              • Catch 5
                August 3rd, 2011 - 19:00

                Different argument. You can’t count these guys as being forced off the team out of one side of you mouth, then accuse them of Sign and place out of the other. Pick an argument and stick with it.

                ( REPLY )
              • Gary
                August 3rd, 2011 - 19:09

                I am failing to see how telling a kid “we have a scholarship you if you qualify. IF you don’t then go JUCO and when if you get eligible then we will have a scholarship for you then.”

                God forbid a coach gives a kids incentive to work his ass off academically as well as athletically.

                The NLI expires so it is not like the University has a lock on the kid.

                ( REPLY )
            • Luke
              August 4th, 2011 - 11:35

              Using your logic, catch, i should only count bodies that actually make it to campus.

              So if a coach misleads a recruit on the possibility of greyshirting, then informs the student he has to later, and the student decides to go somewhere else instead, that would be A-OK in your book.

              ( REPLY )
              • Gary
                August 4th, 2011 - 14:04

                I am not sure which of us you are referring to because it is difficult to follow threads easily with this setup, but I will reply in case you were referring to me.

                First, this portion of the thread is about attrition not grey shirting, but grey shirting would still have no affect on the numbers.

                I counted EVERY NLI, the only ones I removed where those that the coach could have absolutely NO control over AND that did not have to do with academics. Those would be MLB draft, death etc. Grey shirt has ZERO affect on the numbers because the SA was counted if he grey shirted or not. I never stated only count the bodies that made it to campus, even though in a discussion of attrition, it would be logical to do so.

                In order to use your logic, one must assume that grey shirting has never been discussed with the SA before signing NLI. Elliott Porter is the only player that anyone here has shown that to be the case. If you have proof of others, please share.

                And finally, you accused me several times of putting words in your mouth, which I have not, yet you are guilty of that in the post above. If you bothered to actually read the post and understand them then you would know that withholding the potential for grey shirting from a SA is NOT okay with me. Yet you persist in making the statement the it would be A-OK with me.

                ( REPLY )
                • Catch 5
                  August 4th, 2011 - 14:16

                  Gary, he was likely commenting to me as that was one of the parameters of my study, and it is na good point to make. In fact, in doing my research, if I found this to be the case, the player counted against attrition where if it just seemed as if the player had a change of heart as to where he wanted to play, he was not counted. Ole Miss actually was the only school to have had a player leave stating that he had a grayshirt sprung on him late. If you have knowledge of anyone else, ill make sure to correct my study.

                  This scenario is just another example of why just counting players (or LOIs) withbout looking at the details does not produce an accurate analysis. Glad to see you getting it now.

                  ( REPLY )
                  • Gary
                    August 4th, 2011 - 14:30

                    I get it. But that is precisely why I removed that element from my numbers. We could go around and around in the minutia of who knew and who did not, who left on their on accord and who was forced out.

                    Anti-oversigners will always put forth the flawed argument that a player would not admit it fearing retribution, which makes no sense. The coach in question no longer holds any control over them, and in Elliot Porters case, even though he called out Miles for the tactic, LSU welcomed him back as a transfer. So that argument does not real hold water for them.

                    Regardless, I gave them the benefit of doubt and the numbers still show that there is a sufficiently small difference as to make their argument worthless.

                    I am not saying you are wrong mind you, but I have stacked the deck in favor of their argument and they still come up short.

                    ( REPLY )
        • Catch 5
          August 3rd, 2011 - 14:11

          Now take those numbers and remove the players that never qualified, the ones who went to JuCo and returned (double counting), the ones who chose MLB, and the JuCo players who only played two years. While all schools are subject to these “problems”, I would say that the SEC and Big 12 are likely moreso as they use more JuCo players and more actively recruit borderline prospects. As I’ve shown before, and as Gary has shown previously on this thread (and Vesper from several months ago), when you take these losses into effect, you get very close.

          ( REPLY )
          • Luke
            August 3rd, 2011 - 17:20

            No, you have not “shown” that. Please point out to where you have effectively proved that.

            I am glad you can say the SEC schools use JUCO and academically questionable kids more. The question is do those changes equal the amount of different between?

            You are also assuming the B1G or Pac12, ACC never signs players who might not qualify or go to Juco. Not the best of assumptions.

            Furthermore, saying “these kids don’t count because they went to play baseball” is also not an acceptable item. Can you say the reason they chose baseball was because they didn’t want to greyshirt? And this is not even counting the medical scholarships given out.

            So no, you haven’t shown those losses, and i ask you to prove them here.

            ( REPLY )
            • Catch 5
              August 3rd, 2011 - 18:33

              You are the one making the accusations. Why must I produce data to dispute it? I’ve never claimed that my study proved anything as it is admittedly a very limited scope. But it does show that natural attritioon rates from schools that oversign from the SEC and schoolsthat don’t from the B10 are comparable (for the 2008 signing class). while that is not definitive, it is much better than comparing LOIs only. Ill take my data set over that any day.

              “The question is do those changes equal the amount of different between?”
              Well, I’ve seen several “defenders” show that it does. I’ve never even seen anyone making these accusations even take them into account. I wonder why that is? I don’t think Josh has ever acknowledged that his numbers include double-counters.

              I never said those conferences don’t use those players, but during my analysis of the 2008 class, it became evident that it is not as large a factor to them. The average SEC team had (I’m estimating since I don’t have the data with me now) between 1 and 2 players not qualify and another one or two from JuCo. The B10 averaged less than one per team. Since I’m out of town for the week and won’t be able to get to my notes, why don’t. You look that up?

              “Can you say the reason they chose baseball was because they didn’t want to greyshirt?”
              No, I’ve never spoken with any of them so I can’t say that with all certainty, but I believe that a handsome contract with a Major League Baseball team is enough to lure a player away from college football. One would have to believe that Saban force Julio Jones to go in the NFL draft if you also believe what you just wrote. I believe what you are asking is a far greater leap from reason.

              Since we are calling out people for not proving anything, what of your accusations have you proven? That Bama and others sign more LOIs? It has been pointed out how that is not a fair representation of reality. You can deny thatb if you wish, but you will be in the minority there I believe.

              ( REPLY )
        • Gary
          August 3rd, 2011 - 17:05

          Those are the same numbers I used, except 2007-2011 rather than 2006-2010. And they are the RAW numbers. Mr. Staples did not remove duplicates, those that chose to play baseball etc.

          I understand why you continue to use the raw numbers, doing otherwise weakens your already weak argument. But it is certainly a closer look at reality.

          ( REPLY )
          • Luke
            August 3rd, 2011 - 17:25

            Prove why people who played baseball should not count. That’s a pretty weak argument to say “well, i’ll just not count these people”.

            And i noticed you compared Alabama to Iowa. Why not compare Alabama to OSU? I would think Alabama would be a lot more similar to OSU than to Iowa.

            ( REPLY )
            • Gary
              August 3rd, 2011 - 18:29

              Try reading the thread and you would have not both answers. But I will break it down for you once more.

              I compared Iowa and Alabama because it was part of the discussion about. It’s that simple.

              The discussion was about coaches “running players off” or worded differently forced attrition. Someone pointed out that Bama was “WAY” worse than Iowa.

              Baseball was excluded because as powerful as he is, CNS has nothing to do with where a MLB team drafts a player. A good example is Jameis Winston who committed to FSU today, it was down to FSU and Bama. Jameis wants to play football, but if he is drafted high enough to make millions in signing bonus then he MAY chose to play baseball. The problem for him and FSU is that NSD takes place before the MLB draft. If JW chooses baseball then Jimbo Fisher did not do ANYTHING to “run him off.” Thus it is removed from the argument. Again, pretty simple, a coach cannot run off a player he never had.

              Luke, you keep telling people to prove it. I think it is about time you prove it. You and Josh want to label coaches and the SEC as unethical. but you have zero proof. Admittedly Miles looks very bad on a couple of issues. But you want to paint the entire SEC save Vandy, UGA and UF with the same brush. But you have nothing more than opinion and supposition. You have 1 player that accuses CNS of doing something wrong and that is pretty much a he said/he said issue.

              Several people have put in a effort to support their arguments, but you just keep running around saying “prove it.” When they have put forth real arguments backed by information you have not.

              You want to persecute/prosecute the SEC for unethical practices, then prove it.

              ( REPLY )
              • In the Middle (Tar Heel)
                August 3rd, 2011 - 20:44

                No, no, no, Gary. The SOP here is work from a self-evident truth back to the “relevant” evidence, which conveniently happens to be only the supporting evidence.

                Just like politics.

                ( REPLY )
              • BetterRED
                August 3rd, 2011 - 21:47

                Every school has players leaving for the baseball draft, this is a wash.

                ( REPLY )
                • Catch 5
                  August 3rd, 2011 - 22:02

                  From the 2008 recruiting class I looked at, Bama had two, and I believe Georgia had one. There were no such departures from the entire B10 conference. Maybe that will change now that Nebraska has joined. How many have they lost to MLB over the last few years?

                  ( REPLY )
                  • HeadScratcher
                    August 4th, 2011 - 08:05

                    I think he is thinking of Joe Sparma, who went pro from OSU in 1963. Or maybe George Spencer from back in 1947. Yep, OSU has been really loading MLB with players. No wonder they worry so much about that attrition.

                    ( REPLY )
                • Gary
                  August 3rd, 2011 - 22:13

                  REALLLLLY, then name 1 or 2 from every team’s football signing class for us.

                  ( REPLY )
  13. vesper
    August 4th, 2011 - 12:34

    Multiple Penn State blogs had Penn State as oversigned by 2 on NSD. Penn State has had 2 transfers in the last 2 days – convenienty right before the 85 man deadline.* Reminds me of Indiana last year. Really makes you wonder exactly how the reporting requirement of the Big Ten rule works, doesn’t it?

    *Comments from one of the transfers (Ricketts) indicates that it was his choice to transfer, but the same could be said for many of Alabama’s transfers as well.

    On a side note, it’s interesting that Josh’s oversigning cup has Penn State at +1 when multiple sources have them at +2. Even the link he cites as his source for Penn State has them at +2. Just an oversight I’m sure. I’m equally sure that it will be corrected in a timely matter.

    ( REPLY )
  14. vesper
    August 8th, 2011 - 14:56

    For comparison’s sake, Penn State has had 2 players leave their program over the last two years during this period of time

    I don’t know who does your research, but he/she should be fired immediately. With little effort I found 6 scholarships players who left Penn State over the timeframe you set:

    Ryan Breen – quit March ’10
    Brent Carter – quit April ’10
    Tom McEowan – quit April ’10
    AJ Price – transfer May ’10
    Levi Norwood – released from LOI May ’10
    Brandon Ware – transfer May ’11

    So, how is it that you could be off by such a large margin?

    And since your blog post, Penn State has had 3 more players transfer – all in early August. Not to be outdone, Michigan has lost 4 players (3 due to medical hardship) and Ohio State has lost between 2 and 4 players since your post on Alabama. Given your stance that any attrition in late July/early August is highly suspect, I would love to hear Josh’s opinion on the rash of late transfers from the top 3 programs in the Big Ten.

    ( REPLY )
    • BetterRED
      August 12th, 2011 - 13:02

      during the same time frame Penn St. lost 6 players compared to 21, and what point are you trying to prove here. The difference between 6 and 21 is not much when you are talking about pennies but it a whole lot when talking about human beings/bodies/athletes/students?

      ( REPLY )
      • vesper
        August 12th, 2011 - 17:20

        First, I forgot to add Shyquawn Pullium who failed to qualify (like Deion Belue and Alfy Hill for Alabama), so Penn State’s number at the time of Josh’s post was actually 7. Second, when you update that with the 3 recent transfers you get 10.

        The point that I am trying to make is that Josh and others – yourself included – have a history of making “mistakes” that are almost always to the benefit of a Big Ten school or the detriment of an SEC school. Josh was attempting to contrast attrition at Alabama with Penn State. That’s fine, but make an accurate comparison by using the correct numbers. There’s a big difference between 2 and 7 especially when talking about human beings/bodies/athletes/students.

        And if you remove the arbitrary timeframe that Josh established and look at total attrition numbers, it’s more like 23 for Alabama and 13 for Penn State over the last 2 years. Is 23 greater than 13? Yes it is. Does this mean that not every team experiences the exact same amount of attrition? Correct. I suspect that Penn State has experienced below average attrition (which is why Josh chose them). Maybe Alabama has experienced above average attrition. The only way to determine that though would be to calculate what the average amount of attrition is for a college football team. Otherwise, you’re just cherry picking a couple of stats. If I compared the attrition at Nebraska over the last 2 years to that of Vanderbilt, Nebraska wouldn’t come away looking too good. But what would it actually prove other than the fact that Nebraska has significantly more attrition than Vanderbilt? Would it prove that Nebraska is running off players?

        ( REPLY )
        • BetterRED
          August 16th, 2011 - 11:18

          Vesper,
          And you also make mistakes. When we went back and forth about Nebraska’s attrition you had 3-4 guys on the attrition list who should not have been. Everyone makes mistakes but it is pretty clear even if Penn St. has 10, it is NO WHERE near close to 21. Like I said when you are talking about people/athletes/bodies/human beings, a difference of 11 is ALOT. Alabama is over DOUBLE Penn St. in close to the same time frame. Just sayin.

          ( REPLY )
          • vesper
            August 17th, 2011 - 00:49

            When we went back and forth about Nebraska’s attrition you had 3-4 guys on the attrition list who should not have been

            No, you disputed 3 or 4 guys on my Nebraska attrition list. I used the same standard for attrition that you and Josh used. The only mistake that I made was counting Collins Okafor as part of the 2 year attrition. How is he doing in fall camp by the way?

            Everyone makes mistakes but it is pretty clear even if Penn St. has 10, it is NO WHERE near close to 21

            Like I asked before, what does that prove? Why is the amount of attrition that a team has relative to Penn State such a useful metric? On a related note, Penn State is up to 11 today after JoePa dismissed Stephfon Green.

            As a Nebraska fan, maybe you can help me out with something. What happened to Ben Martin and Cruz Barrett? I suspect that they went on medical scholarships last year. If so, Nebraska had 6 medicals last year + 2 so far this year (with 4 more scholarship players not on the latest roster for unknown reasons). That’s quite possibly 8 in the last 2 years as opposed to 0 for Penn State. That’s ALOT and WAY MORE THAN DOUBLE. Just sayin.

            ( REPLY )
            • BetterRED
              August 19th, 2011 - 17:57

              the both finished their careers, graduated with full athletic scholarships.

              On another note, former walk on, Austin Jones was awarded a scholarship yesterday for his commitment to the team.

              “In the offseason of 2007, senior running back Austin Jones showed up at a Nebraska football tryout just wanting to take a shot at making the team. Five years later, Jones can now call himself a Division I scholarship athlete.” -Rivals

              I wonder if Nick Saban, Les Miles, Bobby Petrino, Houston Nutt or Steve Spurrier would do the same or just oversign and use that to overfill their roster. Dont think so.

              ( REPLY )
              • BetterRED
                August 19th, 2011 - 17:58

                ….. and in related news,

                On Thursday, Jones, senior fullback Tyler Legate, senior defensive back Lance Thorell and junior long snapper P.J. Mangieri were all awarded scholarships by head coach Bo Pelini.

                ( REPLY )
                • BetterRED
                  August 19th, 2011 - 17:59

                  These four young men are very deserving of being placed on scholarship,” Pelini said in a statement Friday. “They come from different backgrounds and different circumstances, but each of them represents what Nebraska football is all about. They have worked hard and done the right things on and off the field. The walk-on program has been a vital part of the success here for decades, and it will continue to be very important for us into the future.”–Coach Pelini

                  ( REPLY )
              • vesper
                August 19th, 2011 - 20:17

                the both finished their careers, graduated with full athletic scholarships

                Ben Martin and Cruz Barrett both graduated, but I believe they did so on medical scholarships. They were both juniors in eligibility during the 2009 season. They both mysteriously disappeared from Nebraska’s football roster during spring training in 2010:

                “Though Pelini did not address this, two names no longer appearing on the Husker roster are defensive tackle Ben Martin and offensive lineman Cruz Barrett”
                http://my.journalstar.com/post/Husker_Extra_Group/Husker_Extra/blog/kody_rickey_roster_tidbits.html

                They did not appear on Nebraska’s 2010 regular season football roster nor did they appear on Rivals scholarship counter for 2010:
                http://nebraska.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=928&CID=1051240

                So, they weren’t on the football team but remained enrolled and graduated. Sounds like they were put on medical scholarships to me. What do you think?

                ( REPLY )
              • JT
                August 19th, 2011 - 22:26

                Do the research. Spurrier has awarded 23 scholarships to walk-ons in his first 7 years at SC. That is a higher per year average than Pelini. Of course, facts are ignored if they go against the agenda of this site and regular posters like you.

                ( REPLY )
                • BetterRED
                  August 26th, 2011 - 12:06

                  How does he get the numbers to do this when he has an average 27.14 recruits per year oversigning? Numbers just dont add up there poncho unless he is purging his roster!

                  ( REPLY )
  15. vesper
    August 20th, 2011 - 00:01

    Let’s take a look at Indiana just for fun. Last summer, Indiana lost 2 players which reportedly got them down to 85 scholarships:

    Heading into the summer, Indiana was still over its limit of 85 scholarship players on the football roster. However, two recent moves have brought the Hoosiers back to compliance.

    Running back Shane Covington will transfer according to a source, and defensive tackle Jarrod Smith is staying at Indiana but will leave the football program because of a back injury that cost him much of last season and all spring. By NCAA rule, he will continue to receive a scholarship, but no longer counts against Indiana’s limit of 85 scholarships

    http://blogs.heraldtimesonline.com/iusp/?p=9000

    So, heading into fall camp Indiana was at 85. By my count, they had 17 seniors on their roster for the 2010 season. 16 (all but kicker Nick Ford) either signed LOIs out of high school or were awarded a scholarship after walking on. They also lost junior Tandon Doss to the draft. That gave them a budget of 17 (16 seniors +1 junior).

    On NSD, Indiana signed 21 making them 4 over budget.

    On Feb 21, Indiana head coach Kevin Wilson announced that 3 players would not return to the team (Matt Ernest, Zach Davis-Walker, Damon Sims): http://blogs.indystar.com/hoosiersinsider/2011/02/21/a-few-things-we-learned-about-indiana-athletics-this-weekend/
    This put Indiana at +1.

    In March, it was announced that Eric Thomas would not return to the team. This put Indiana at 0 points.

    In April, Aaron Price gave up football due to injuries and went on medical scholarship. -1 point.

    In July, Indiana signed Stephon Houston. 0 points

    In August, Wilson announced the loss of 6 additional players (Nick Zachery, Chris Hagerup, Harrison Scott, Pat McShane, Andre Kates, Colin Rodkey). -6 points

    “There have not been defections as much as mutual (understandings) based on team rules and doing things right, and do we have a relationship that’s going to work together,” Wilson said. “We had one young man who has graduated and he’s got a job. He has a diploma and a job and he’s went home and that was decided at the end of last spring that he was going to move forward and not play. I don’t want to talk about this only because then all of a sudden people think we had issues when really it was just a couple of guys whether it was a failure to follow team guidelines, rules whatever. There’s no major issues or anything to discuss. We’ve kind of moved in a direction where we’ve tried to help some guys move into a different direction. So we’re sitting here right now with 105 guys and that’s the crowd that we’ve got.”
    http://blogs.indystar.com/hoosiersinsider/2011/08/09/the-wilson-era-of-iu-football-begins/

    Yesterday, Wilson announced that 4 walk-on’s have been awarded scholarships. -2 points.

    According to Indiana’s Rivals affiliate (behind a paywall), Indiana is currently at 83 scholarships (-2 points).

    Attrition since NSD:
    Matt Ernest – left the team
    Zach Davis-Walker – left the team
    Damon Sims – left the team
    Eric Thomas – left the team
    Aaron Price – medical
    Colin Rodkey – medical
    Nick Zachery – transfer
    Chris Hagerup – left the team
    Harrison Scott – left the team
    Pat McShane – left the team
    Andre Kates – transfer

    A few questions/points:
    1. How is it that Indiana oversigned by 4 when Big Ten rules supposedly only allow oversigning by 3?
    2. How is it that the Big Ten only claims 1 member school oversigned when there are indiciations that Indiana, Michigan State, Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, Wisconsin, and Purdue oversigned?
    3. We heard quite a lot from Josh when there were several departures from SEC schools earlier in the summer. He even penned an “open letter” to 2 Alabama transfers in which he advised them to contact Marc Bailey because he “knows about all the tricks coaches are going to use on you to encourage you to transfer out of their program so they can get their roster down to 85 players”. Isn’t it odd that we haven’t heard anything from Josh following the rash of departures at several Big Ten schools (some of which oversigned) the last 3 weeks? While it’s touching that Josh would be so concerned about the welfare of student-athletes in the SEC, it strikes me as odd that he shows no concern whatsoever for the student-athletes in the Big Ten.
    4. Speaking of Marc, he was the first to criticize his alma mater for oversigning in basketball. I’d like to hear his take on the football program now that it’s been shown to oversign as well.
    5. Finally, while awarding scholarships to walk-on’s is great, it is not evidence that the team did not oversign.

    ( REPLY )
    • CFBfan
      August 20th, 2011 - 13:19

      Vesper, can you list the 13 PSU players that left the team the last two years? Thanks,

      ( REPLY )
      • vesper
        August 20th, 2011 - 18:57

        11 not 13. The 6 listed above plus Shyquawn Pullium, Kevin Newsome, Ricketts, Matteus, and Stephfon Green

        ( REPLY )
        • CFBfan
          August 20th, 2011 - 22:44

          Thanks.

          Seems the Big10 has some explaining to do in regards to the Indiana situation.
          Maybe you should start a website that shines a light on the misconceptions about the
          Big10 and roster management. I’m guessing that between football and basketball, there would be plenty to write about. Apparently the info will never see the light of day on this site.

          ( REPLY )
  16. JT
    August 20th, 2011 - 15:46

    BetterRed: Talking about walk-ons: “I wonder if Nick Saban, Les Miles, Bobby Petrino, Houston Nutt or Steve Spurrier would do the same or just oversign and use that to overfill their roster. Dont think so.” BUZZZZZZZZZ….wrong answer. Thanks for playing.

    Spurrier just announced 2 walk-ons will receive scholarships this Fall, bringing the roster to 85 (see part of article below). By my count, that now makes 24 such awards in Spurrier’s first seven seasons. At 3.4 awards per season, that is more than the 2.5 (10/4) that Pellini has awarded according to you. No need to apologize.

    To the owners of this site:

    Do you ever admit you made a mistake or post rebuttals? There remains on this site two articles that pertain to the Byrce Sherman situation. Both neglect to note this player was a walk-on and told his award was a 1-year deal last year. Both imply that Spurrier pulled his scholarship to correct an “oversigning” issue. Given Spurrier just awarded two scholarships to other walk-ons, this seems to fly in the face of the accusation. Spurrier did not need to remove him from scholarship to make the numbers work. Yes, he took Sherman’s scholarship and gave it to another walk-on but he is on record saying that walk-ons understand they are awarded 1-year deals at the discretion of the staff. Most of the time, this is not an issue as the scholarships go to seniors but on a handful of occasions, he has given them to underclassman. In one case, a kicker got a 2-year ride out of it. In Sherman’s case, he ONLY got a free $25-30,000 for one year of school, as opposed to continung to pay this himself like other non-scholarship students (and what he was doing already). Wow, he sure was mis-treated.

    Wooten and Markett awarded scholarships

    One would think that receiving a scholarship wasn’t any big deal. Jay Wooten and Marty Markett have each been on scholarship before.

    One would be wrong.

    “I found out about a week ago,” Wooten said on Saturday, after No. 12 South Carolina held its third scrimmage of the fall. “It was great. I’m just grateful to coach (John) Butler and coach (Steve) Spurrier for giving me that opportunity.”

    The two fifth-year seniors were awarded scholarships by Spurrier as the Gamecocks inch closer to the Sept. 3 season-opener, elevating them from walk-on status to full-ride players. Each was appreciative and happy for the gift, Markett especially, after having to save for his tuition and hope it would be enough for the full year.

    “I was late to the meeting, because I was in the financial aid office trying to find a student loan or something, because I couldn’t afford school yet,” Markett said. “So I texted Akeem (Auguste) and C.C. (Whitlock), said, ‘Tell coach I’m going to be late.’

    “They were like, ‘But coach said come on up to the stadium,’ because I was getting a scholarship. So I just walked out of the financial aid office and headed to the stadium. Helped out a lot.”

    ( REPLY )
    • vesper
      August 22nd, 2011 - 11:11

      To the owners of this site:

      Do you ever admit you made a mistake or post rebuttals?

      Since Josh won’t answer, I’ll answer for him. In general, no, he will not admit mistakes nor will he post corrections/retractions. A prime example is his post on Michigan State player Arthur Ray. Josh dedicated a lengthy post talking about how he was kept on football scholarship versus medical scholarship despite being diagnosed with cancer. Earlier this year, it was revealed that he actually had been put on medical scholarship and Josh has never posted a correction/retraction.

      The only time I’m aware that he admitted to making a mistake was after I hounded him every day for 2 weeks about his claim that Ohio State released a scholarship roster to the public. Like I said, it took 2 weeks of hounding him. Josh is in the business of making allegations, not in the business of facts. He wants to hold others accountable for their actions, but is unwilling to be accountable for his own.

      ( REPLY )
    • BetterRED
      August 26th, 2011 - 12:05

      By my count Steve Spurrier has signed 190 recruits in that same 7 year period which is an average of 27.14 recruits per year. Considering the NCAA has a flexible rule of 25 recruits per class and a total of 85, I would say it would be impossible for Spurrier to offer 24 scholarships to walk-ons.

      In that same 7 year period, Nebraska has signed 170 recruits which is an average of 24.29 per year which is well below South Carolina’s average btw!

      How is it with averaging over 27 recruits per year, Spurrier is able to offer 3.4 recruits a year with a walk on scholarship? The numbers just dont add up unless he keeps a walk-on around for 4 years and lets him develop ensuring to not take up a scholly. While this is going on he is getting rid of a third year scholarship guy who didnt “pan” out like he was hoping! I am pretty sure that is all these numbers have indicated.

      No need to apologize!

      ( REPLY )
      • Charlie9
        August 26th, 2011 - 12:52

        “…I would say it would be impossible for Spurrier to offer 24 scholarships to walk-ons. ”

        BetterRED,
        You are wrong.

        No need to apologize!

        ( REPLY )
        • BetterRED
          August 26th, 2011 - 14:24

          South Carolina has had almost an entire recruiting class signed more than Nebraska in 7 years but yet they had 24 walk-ons? Possible, not likely! I would like to see the entire list, provided with links before I will accept it.

          Charlie9, nice fact brah.

          ( REPLY )
      • Catch 5
        August 26th, 2011 - 17:10

        Why do you say it is impossible? Because 27 > 25, leaving no room for walk-ons? How about your team? They average just under that same 25 limit. Given the higher number of non-qualifiers and such at USC, I can totally see them having enough room. How does NU have the space for all of theirs given how few transfers they suffer?

        ( REPLY )
        • JT
          August 26th, 2011 - 22:44

          I have explained this time and time again (yet it falls on deaf ears). For you, I will explain again.

          1. The numbers you quote (from this site) are inflated. They double-count players who are offered in one class, go juco or prep, and then are offered again in a later class. I did not take the time to go through all seven years but I counted at least 6 players that were double-counted this way.

          2. Beyond the numbers above, SC has consistently had several players who were “signed” but never enrolled in each signing class. This year, the number was 3. The last 4 years, the number has been around 5. I will look at last year’s class as an example: We “signed” 23 players but only 18 enrolled.

          3. Adjusting for the fact that “signings” (your 190 and 25 per year) do not equal the enrolled scholarships (the 85 cap), SC is not at 27 players added per year but more in the range of 22-23 (I will give Nebraska the same benefit of the doubt that your quoted 24 figure contains some of the same errors; however, if not, SC is already under Nebraska’s average “enrollees” (big distinction between signed and enrolled)).

          4. Finally SC has had attrition: for academics, drugs, behavior, leaving early for the NFL, medical scholarships and transferring/quitting). The vast majority of these cases are well-documented but of course, you will believe what you want. Regardless, they account for an average of 5-6 per year.

          5. All the numbers above have allowed Spurrier to “run-off” players so he can award 23 scholarships to walk-ons. The list you asked for is below (I subtracted Scotty Spurrier’s award as a senior just because it didn’t feel right to count the coach’s son; therefore the 23 and not the 24 I noted earlier). All this info is readily available on several Gamecock websites. I pulled most of my data from the Rivals site: gamecockcentral.com

          P.S. I take back my earlier offer. You SHOULD apologize not only to me but now also to Charlie9….brah

          August 2011 (Jay Wooten, Marty Markett)
          July 2010 (Garrett Chisholm)
          January 2010 (Bryce Sherman)
          August 2009 (Zac Brindise, Stephen Flint, Brandan Davis, Cedrick Snead, Darantzy Brunson, Blake Baxley, John Guerry, Spencer Lanning)
          August 2008 (Charles Turner)
          August 2007 (Bryan Kingrey)
          August 2006 (Greg Wright, Seth Edwards, Brett Nichols, Scott Morgan, Thomas Coleman)
          August 2005 (Lanard Stafford, Jerod June, Michael Flint, Ike Crofoot)

          ( REPLY )
          • BetterRED
            August 27th, 2011 - 12:02

            youre right on attrition but I guess Nebraska doesnt have any attrition so therfor they dont have as many spots for walk-ons??? Every team suffers “normal” attrition but South Carolina, Alabama, LSU alike, seem to suffer higher attrition than the rest of the country. Odd coincidence or the fact of oversigning and they have numbers to give?

            I didnt pull the numbers off this site actually. I pulled them from the rivals database and even if what you say is true with South Carolina’s attrition, the numbers still dont add up. Why does South Carolina have higher attrition than Nebraska? i would say the answer is fairly simple, oversigning and the numbers they have to give. They signed 20 more players/people/humans than Nebraska did over the same period with one coach while Nebraska had 2 coaches respectively. Most people on this site have agreed with a coaching change comes higher attrition due to athletes transfering. There are always athletes wanting to transfer because they dont agree with the new coaches philosophies. So, How is it South Carolina has “signed” 20 more players over the same period of time than Nebraska? You site attrition as the fact but what you fail to realize is ALL teams have normal attrition but you argue South Carolina has higher than other teams. Why is this? Oversigning!

            Brah, no need to apologize or let that fall on deaf ears!

            ( REPLY )
            • BetterRED
              August 27th, 2011 - 12:08

              Catch 5,
              there is a huge difference between 27 and 24 when speaking of recruits. That is 3 players difference PER YEAR! The way you explain makes it sound as if you are talking like South Carolina has attrition but Nebraska doesnt have any?

              ( REPLY )
  17. Catch 5
    August 26th, 2011 - 17:37

    [blockquote]
    Wilson and Love are still with the team, they grayshirted. They left for 1 year but returned the following.
    [\blockquote]
    Counting these two is beyond misleading. They never left the team as you imply. They delayed their initial enrollment. Counting them with the transfers? Of course you will get the right number. Greyshirts account for the remainder. I shouldn’t be, but I am constantly amazed at the twists and contortions you go to to mislead others to believe in your agenda.

    ( REPLY )
    • BetterRED
      August 27th, 2011 - 12:06

      I never said anything about players leaving the team, I am talking about recruits taken in a class. If these players leave the team and return or greyshirt, they wouldnt have been counted twice by the way I counted them. I didnt count transfers to the team either. In fact, your comment actually helps out what I am trying to prove. How is there room when these players never left the team seemingly opening up two spots for the future walk-ons. How is there so much room for all these walk-ons?

      ( REPLY )

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Against Oversigning

List of Athletic Directors, University Presidents, and Coaches (both current and former) that have stated publicly that they are against oversigning.

Bernie Machen - Florida
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Bobby Dodd - GT (40 years ago)
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Jay Paterno - Penn State
Kirk Ferentz - Iowa
Tom Osborne - Nebraska
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In Favor of Oversigning

List of Athletic Directors, University Presidents, and Coaches that have publicly defended their practice of oversigning.

All 12 SEC Coaches voted to keep oversigning, these are the most vocal: Huston Nutt - Ole Miss
Bobby Petrino - Arkansas
Steve Spurrier - South Carolina
Nick Saban - Alabama
Les Miles - LSU
Larry Blakeney - Troy
Tommy Tuberville - Texas Tech

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